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[Music]

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thank you

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foreign

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[Music]

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class is in session with the invisible

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night school my name is Leah Prime I am

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here tonight hosting with my lovely

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co-hosts uh Nick Campbell and Lewis

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um if you enjoy just joining us welcome

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we're glad you're here whether you're

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watching live or on a recorded stream

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later on the invisible night school for

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anyone just joining us is a small

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Consortium of Lee researchers and

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Scholars exploring UFOs uaps High

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strangeness and the phenomena

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you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com you can also

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find us linked to our various Instagram

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Twitter accounts and Lewis's dedicated

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blog ufology is corrupt in the uh show

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information notes so tonight we're going

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to be talking with Nick Nick coffin

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College to discuss the 1994 Lake

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Michigan sighting I I appreciate you

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nodding because I have just pronounced

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your last name every single time but I

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even wrote it out

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um I transliterated it so that I only

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stumbled but didn't totally blow it up

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you nailed it I liked it thank you

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um

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but you know before we get started uh we

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always like to start the show with a few

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minutes just a basic conversation about

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what's kind of going on in the community

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what we're all thinking about

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um and also uh hello to Swayze spooky

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great to see you

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Derek hey uh Brooke always nice to see

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you seen you here a few weeks in a row

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this is awesome Steve awesome to have

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you here swink this is like a who's who

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of some of my favorite audience members

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so super excited to see everyone here

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and of course Lord Ludacris what up

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couldn't uh couldn't say hello with that

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uh greeting you too

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um so yeah so all of us have a bunch of

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stuff on that docket but um Campbell

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right before the show we were talking

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about the uh supposed report that we're

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going to be getting right around

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Halloween what are yours

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well

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um based on what I've been seeing on UFO

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Twitter uh it's exactly eight months uh

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is October 31st and that's how long they

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had to prepare it we don't know it could

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come out tomorrow it could come out on

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the 31st it could come out maybe a

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little bit after that uh the report

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itself there's very low expectations

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especially after they set those

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expectations with the first report the

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14 pages I've seen people sort of

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limiting their expectations this time

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around although I've also seen some

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comments indicating they think there

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actually is going to be uh non-human

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intelligence disclosure in this report

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so um I'm very excited to see what

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happens I've seen those comments from a

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lot of Twitter accounts that have like

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ambiguous profile pictures and then a

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lot of numbers on the end of their

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usernames yeah what is the source of

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information where are they claiming that

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they get this idea where where's this

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expectation coming from well it's an

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interesting question uh the only thing

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that I've sort of seen are vague

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um assertions about uh you know unnamed

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sources the usual thing like I I think

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classic you know oh it's just the

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Classic stuff um I didn't dig too deep

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because you know it's like I know before

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I mean okay that sounds a little uh

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presumptuous but I'm quite confident

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that there isn't like a definitive piece

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of evidence out there that says there's

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going to be nhi disclosure in the report

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so you know it'd be interesting maybe to

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track that down but I don't you know I'm

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not too concerned about it I wonder if

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this is uh some people are interpreting

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this as uh Jeremy Corbell Silver Bullet

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yeah I was gonna say I haven't heard

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that term associated with Corbell uh it

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was a quote taken out of that uh last

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Liberation times piece which I think was

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speaking more to that

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um that bill that's supposed to pass

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about whistleblowers which is how I I

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took his quote about the Silver Bullet

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these uh these alleged whistleblowers

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they're gonna come out and talk about

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Legends their legacy projects and crash

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retrievals and stuff like that um though

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I don't really see that being a silver

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bullet either unless there's conclusive

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evidence to come with it otherwise it's

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more stories like we've had over the

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past 70 years but um maybe that's the

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interpretation I'm not I haven't seen

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really anything else to

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um delete anyone to believe that there'd

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be any kind of nhi disclosure from this

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report or any report coming out in the

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near future so um oh the one thing that

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I saw on that was somebody uh retweeted

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or posted president former President

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Obama's uh promo video no encourage

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young people to vote oh yeah what did

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you see you said aliens and then

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is that a little concerning that you see

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people reacting that way to that uh

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something like very clearly

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tongue-in-cheek

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um matching the tone of the rest of the

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video

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yeah that it's something that I thought

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of immediately and it was along the same

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lines as what I thought of as a previous

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comments is that um like I feel like

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it's a little bit danger maybe

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potentially dangerous in some ways for a

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president former president Obama to sort

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of like

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encourage people to think it might mean

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aliens uh and it goes against all of the

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internal National Security documents

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suggesting they don't want people to be

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encouraged to think that so it's

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confusing on those grounds what did you

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think

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I I'm assuming he doesn't really know

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that people some people take this she

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doesn't hang out on UFO Twitter right he

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has no idea what kind of epistemological

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firefighting goes on 24 7. that's got to

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be the excuse because I don't know I

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mean I if if uh if

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one of your parents saw that ad would

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they take away anything from it I

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seriously doubt it or just anyone

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outside of this small community I don't

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this is the kind of AD where like if my

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parents saw it they'd send it to me and

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be like oh look he said aliens isn't

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that what you're interested in

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that would be it yeah that is such a

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it's so funny that's exactly like

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anytime I've mentioned to somebody in my

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like personal life that I'm sort of like

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doing UFO skepticisms type stuff the

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next time I see them inevitably it's

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always how's the alien stuff going yeah

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no thanks awesome

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what I like like when I came back from

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the New York City Symposium I like put

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my parents particularly my mother in

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crisis who totally thought that I was

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going when I talked about being into

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UFOs totally thought I was going to

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something like a comic book convention

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or like a Sci-Fi convention and then I

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come home and I'm chattering away about

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like you know not localized

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Consciousness psychedelics near-death

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experiences like and she was like what

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the [\h__\h] where were you today like she

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thought you know it was like Mars

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Attacks figurines and Spock ears but

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it's actually way weirder than that

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actually it is interesting that the the

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public at large kind of just Associates

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those things though you know with

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something that is buying by name Unknown

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People all seem to kind of have an idea

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of what they think it is culturally I

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mean we've talked about that a million

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times just the uh the immediate like

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just culturally known connection between

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space aliens and unidentified things

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that people are seeing yes and that's

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what they run every time it's in the

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news right it's like uh the footage from

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storming Area 51 like people in like you

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know alien masks running down the street

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and stuff and so it you know it sort of

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builds that expectation and gets the

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laughs and I guess we saw Obama kind of

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leaning into that a little bit because

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like my parents here if they saw

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President Obama's little thing there

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they would be like report what the hexy

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talking aliens they wouldn't have no

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idea what he was talking about probably

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yeah my parents I know for sure but a

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lot of people maybe uh something it's

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also you know it's courting the

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demographic right like if it's stuff

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showing up on Twitter is going for the I

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don't know Millennial geriatric

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Millennials set yeah um

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yeah I mean it it was very it was

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literally a political ad so yeah

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you can't take it too seriously yeah

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yeah and uh the other thing I thought it

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was interesting was this Monday uh just

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uh yeah a couple days ago NASA started

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there um I believe it was a night it's

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nine month period uh UAP study uh

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program with 16 members on the uh

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commission a bunch of very high level

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people in the um

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the guy in charge of the chairman uh

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gosh what's his name Professor or doctor

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uh I've got it right here I was gonna

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say the the tall white guy with the

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glasses right but that probably

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describes like the entire research panel

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yeah I'm going like through the document

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now and I can't okay David spurgle and

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uh he's got all kind of President of

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Simon's foundation Founding director

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I've asked uh computational astrophysics

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it's got Gene uh MacArthur genius fellow

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it's been excited anyone qualified more

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than a hundred thousand times cited in

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Publications

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um wasn't one of the people on the board

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a former member of Bigelow airspace

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that would be very interesting I've not

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seen I I thought I caught I thought I

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heard that

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I can't recall now something to look

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into for sure at least yeah I believe it

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was yeah I mean we we saw it right like

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the collective Community reaction to

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this was pretty predictable right like

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that um you know there's too many mixed

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allegiances on This research panel

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they're not going to be able to explore

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the subject in an unbiased fashion there

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was some statement I think made by

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spurgle about how like we're looking

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into uaps but we don't have any reason

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to expect them to be extraterrestrial

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which immediately sent the community off

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and you know well they're in there

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completely unqualified to take an

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unbiased approach

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um it's like I mean I think it's like

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the reaction to the content report all

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over again really right yeah yeah

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exactly and like

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um I I was scrolling through rather's

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Twitter account he had like some tweet

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that was basically like raise your hand

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if you're willing to accept the findings

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of like qualified scientists on this

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subject and

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um yeah watching his slow slide into

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kind of like

277
00:11:18,050 --> 00:11:16,200
cynical uh

278
00:11:19,370 --> 00:11:18,060
cynical distance from the community has

279
00:11:21,290 --> 00:11:19,380
been I don't know feels like looking

280
00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:21,300
into a crystal ball maybe in six months

281
00:11:24,650 --> 00:11:23,880
I'll be so burnt out that'll happen too

282
00:11:26,329 --> 00:11:24,660
um

283
00:11:28,370 --> 00:11:26,339
but uh you know I mean when I think

284
00:11:30,350 --> 00:11:28,380
about this NASA study um I mean it's

285
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:30,360
it's not super well funded it seems kind

286
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:31,920
of like a vanity project in a lot of

287
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:33,360
ways right it helps promote public

288
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:36,240
support it's pretty Don partisan uh it's

289
00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:37,680
not you know just creating weapons to

290
00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:39,899
kill each other which is also nice

291
00:11:44,269 --> 00:11:42,060
um you know but it when I think about

292
00:11:47,090 --> 00:11:44,279
where it could be potentially really

293
00:11:49,130 --> 00:11:47,100
helpful is basically an establishing

294
00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:49,140
like data

295
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:51,240
um standards and governance around the

296
00:11:56,630 --> 00:11:53,519
subject like as a way to kind of be in a

297
00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:56,640
quote-unquote impartial third party to

298
00:11:59,389 --> 00:11:58,380
to create

299
00:12:01,970 --> 00:11:59,399
um

300
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:01,980
yeah electricity data governance for the

301
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:03,600
subject like what formats should be used

302
00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:06,240
how should things be discussed what's a

303
00:12:10,850 --> 00:12:08,760
proposed or potential pathway for

304
00:12:12,769 --> 00:12:10,860
reconciling disparate data sources from

305
00:12:15,769 --> 00:12:12,779
like different you know public private

306
00:12:17,150 --> 00:12:15,779
academic spaces um that to me feels like

307
00:12:19,069 --> 00:12:17,160
kind of the most interesting thing they

308
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:19,079
could do with it given I think what is

309
00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:20,880
it like it's like a million dollars or

310
00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:22,860
something it's not a lot of money I

311
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:24,360
don't recall exactly but yeah I remember

312
00:12:28,910 --> 00:12:27,060
it was uh yeah it was a scrap yeah

313
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:28,920
Louise uh have you looked at this at all

314
00:12:32,630 --> 00:12:31,260
uh the NASA study uh are you familiar

315
00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:32,640
with this at all I was curious what your

316
00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:33,660
thoughts are

317
00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:35,820
as an academic I haven't looked at it

318
00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:38,220
into it as such but I've heard about it

319
00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:39,680
um

320
00:12:44,509 --> 00:12:42,180
the first thing that comes to my mind is

321
00:12:47,389 --> 00:12:44,519
what would Stanton Friedman have thought

322
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:47,399
if he was still around interesting he

323
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:48,959
had he talked a lot of crap uh

324
00:12:54,769 --> 00:12:51,600
admittedly but yeah he did at least try

325
00:12:56,750 --> 00:12:54,779
to be kind of serious

326
00:12:59,090 --> 00:12:56,760
so I'm just wondering like if this

327
00:13:01,009 --> 00:12:59,100
disclosure the current so-called

328
00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:01,019
disclosure process was happening in the

329
00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:02,760
90s especially

330
00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:04,500
you know when you have the X-Files going

331
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:05,270
on

332
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:06,480
[Music]

333
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,320
foreign

334
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,600
Friedman now he was a he was a proponent

335
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:11,519
to the end of the mj-12 documents wasn't

336
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:14,399
he yes and also the Betty and Bonnie

337
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:23,269
um you know he got mold a few like when

338
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:25,320
it wasn't in 2013 also he was on this

339
00:13:31,930 --> 00:13:27,420
radio show with a professional

340
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,569
I said that uh about the uh the star map

341
00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:37,440
discovered by Mercury fish with the

342
00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:39,000
hanging Marbles and stuff like that

343
00:13:43,850 --> 00:13:41,100
based on um yeah yeah limited

344
00:13:46,690 --> 00:13:43,860
information at the time and that like it

345
00:13:49,490 --> 00:13:46,700
was um definitively

346
00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:49,500
discredited after the hippocus

347
00:13:55,009 --> 00:13:51,480
um Mission you know brought back the

348
00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:55,019
updated star distance yeah but

349
00:14:00,350 --> 00:13:57,720
um uh Friedman just sort of um you know

350
00:14:03,410 --> 00:14:00,360
doubled down on that

351
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,420
and we're done grade 12. as well you

352
00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:05,040
know I remember

353
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:07,260
um even in the original Cosmos with Carl

354
00:14:11,150 --> 00:14:09,600
Sagan he kind of uh shot some holes in

355
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:11,160
that star map idea just because yeah

356
00:14:16,129 --> 00:14:13,560
yeah yeah it was already kind of um

357
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:16,139
questionable yeah and logical grounds

358
00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,660
but you know the Apocalypse Mission just

359
00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:20,940
like that was a final nail in the coffin

360
00:14:24,889 --> 00:14:23,220
yeah but you know you still have people

361
00:14:26,829 --> 00:14:24,899
today saying well maybe it was this

362
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:26,839
other star system

363
00:14:30,829 --> 00:14:29,040
it always kind of shifts when like the

364
00:14:32,569 --> 00:14:30,839
evidence you know this disconfirming

365
00:14:36,370 --> 00:14:32,579
evidence people just kind of

366
00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:36,380
well you know something else

367
00:14:40,430 --> 00:14:38,700
where am I supposed to even be I don't

368
00:14:43,069 --> 00:14:40,440
I'm still taken with this like

369
00:14:46,569 --> 00:14:43,079
professorial Smooth Move from Nick to

370
00:14:52,009 --> 00:14:49,730
I was trying to uh I was trying to see

371
00:14:54,889 --> 00:14:52,019
what year this book came out um captured

372
00:14:57,170 --> 00:14:54,899
it was uh not one of his most latest

373
00:14:59,569 --> 00:14:57,180
books before he died uh he broke it with

374
00:15:01,790 --> 00:14:59,579
like the um I believe it was like the

375
00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:01,800
niece of Betty Hill Kathleen Martin it

376
00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:03,660
looks like it was 2007 that this came

377
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:06,180
out so I mean yeah he was pretty recent

378
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:07,920
I mean feels like that was recent but

379
00:15:12,769 --> 00:15:10,800
that was quite a while ago

380
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:12,779
yikes um

381
00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:15,120
but yeah I mean he was a stubborn dude I

382
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:16,980
actually got to talk to him a couple

383
00:15:24,530 --> 00:15:20,040
times in the past like around uh 2011

384
00:15:26,689 --> 00:15:24,540
2012 and really really a stubborn person

385
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:26,699
um coming from different perspectives

386
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:30,120
too uh I mean he

387
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:31,980
when asked for evidence when pressed for

388
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:34,740
any evidence one of his main sources was

389
00:15:40,009 --> 00:15:37,199
Project Blue Book Special Report 14 I

390
00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:40,019
think is what it was yeah it was you

391
00:15:43,550 --> 00:15:41,820
know the best you could say out of some

392
00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:43,560
of those cases were they were

393
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:45,420
inconclusive much like the case I'm

394
00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:46,560
going to present tonight it's

395
00:15:49,009 --> 00:15:48,060
inconclusive

396
00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:49,019
um

397
00:15:53,090 --> 00:15:51,300
but and it's a point I try to make when

398
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:53,100
covering this case too

399
00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:54,959
um just because you have something

400
00:15:59,210 --> 00:15:57,420
inconclusive it's still a far leap and

401
00:16:01,329 --> 00:15:59,220
even an argument from ignorance to say

402
00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:01,339
that this unknown is

403
00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:03,300
extraterrestrial but he was very

404
00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:05,519
convinced of the Extraterrestrial origin

405
00:16:10,250 --> 00:16:08,820
of UFOs and I yeah I thought that was a

406
00:16:13,129 --> 00:16:10,260
really frustrating uh talking point

407
00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:13,139
speaking him the couple times I did it

408
00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:15,060
was quite interesting to see like uh

409
00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:16,680
just looking back briefly over his

410
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,019
history uh last uh you know last time I

411
00:16:25,389 --> 00:16:21,360
checked like it he always stuck so

412
00:16:29,389 --> 00:16:25,399
firmly to the like the physical machine

413
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:29,399
bolts uh yeah exactly what anyone would

414
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:31,440
picture you know Gray's in a vehicle

415
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,040
like humanoid aliens in vehicles much

416
00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:37,440
like us coming down and visiting us

417
00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:39,300
um apparently abducting us and doing

418
00:16:43,970 --> 00:16:41,639
like rudimentary uh genetic and medical

419
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:43,980
tests on us

420
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:46,560
um yes and um and he originally what

421
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:48,420
he's a nuclear physicist right and he

422
00:16:54,410 --> 00:16:51,300
worked on uh propulsion systems like

423
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:54,420
nuclear reactors in aircraft uh yeah so

424
00:16:58,910 --> 00:16:56,100
I imagine that must have influenced his

425
00:17:01,550 --> 00:16:58,920
sort of in imagination when he would

426
00:17:02,689 --> 00:17:01,560
look up uh at these projects I feel like

427
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:02,699
that gave him

428
00:17:07,370 --> 00:17:04,559
um a kind of a boost in credibility to a

429
00:17:08,809 --> 00:17:07,380
lot of average people yeah there's a

430
00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:08,819
website called the sources That Time

431
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:10,980
Forgot do you guys know about that yes

432
00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:13,919
Kurt Collins right there's actually an

433
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:15,480
article there

434
00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:18,480
um which um talks about Friedman he was

435
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,980
part of a group that was like trying to

436
00:17:23,329 --> 00:17:21,600
replicate um

437
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,339
a flying saucer like some of the

438
00:17:28,570 --> 00:17:25,439
characteristics and then trying to sort

439
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:28,580
of put that into a machine but um

440
00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:30,960
didn't happen right

441
00:17:33,950 --> 00:17:32,940
I think it was a company which was I

442
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:33,960
don't know it might have been like

443
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,880
General Dynamics or something some

444
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:36,960
company

445
00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:39,900
was like doing a small scale study kind

446
00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:41,820
of on what it would take to replicate

447
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:43,080
the

448
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:49,260
but I don't know it didn't really go

449
00:17:54,169 --> 00:17:52,020
very far but apparently Friedman was one

450
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:54,179
of that part of that crew

451
00:17:59,049 --> 00:17:56,460
okay I was just thinking about the other

452
00:18:01,730 --> 00:17:59,059
side where are the five observable

453
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,740
observables from is that something that

454
00:18:05,870 --> 00:18:04,080
uh Elizondo like came up with himself

455
00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:05,880
like where are these things from because

456
00:18:10,909 --> 00:18:07,620
they're always being cited and I

457
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:10,919
realized I had no idea yeah the origin

458
00:18:14,090 --> 00:18:12,720
either I mean I hear Mick West mentioned

459
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:14,100
them all the time too

460
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:16,080
um I have a feeling that Elizondo came

461
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:21,230
I don't know because they don't make any

462
00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:23,160
sense because most UFOs don't exhibit

463
00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:24,900
the five observables the most convincing

464
00:18:29,330 --> 00:18:27,900
cases even right uh so uh you know

465
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:29,340
whatever anyway that's an aside but it

466
00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:30,720
just made me think of it which is kind

467
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:32,220
of strange I don't know the origin of

468
00:18:34,789 --> 00:18:33,780
that and then he says he's not a UFO guy

469
00:18:36,529 --> 00:18:34,799
but he's like coming up with the

470
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:36,539
criteria with the right one I mean

471
00:18:42,169 --> 00:18:38,520
whatever anyway I don't want to bash on

472
00:18:43,370 --> 00:18:42,179
uh Elizondo too much right now but um uh

473
00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:43,380
oh okay I wanted to mention too actually

474
00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:45,660
around about the NASA study um did

475
00:18:52,370 --> 00:18:48,780
anybody here see uh John Greenwald uh

476
00:18:54,890 --> 00:18:52,380
posted a few days ago a foia internal uh

477
00:18:57,289 --> 00:18:54,900
report that the current chairman of the

478
00:18:59,450 --> 00:18:57,299
UAP study group David spurgle wrote in

479
00:19:02,150 --> 00:18:59,460
NASA uh it was like last year or

480
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:02,160
something he circulated it internally a

481
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:03,900
small report to explain what he thought

482
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:06,419
was going on with UAP

483
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:07,919
um I don't know that this is probably

484
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:09,780
what collectively triggered the

485
00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:13,440
community the interesting okay yeah

486
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:15,539
because uh that makes sense um because

487
00:19:18,770 --> 00:19:17,280
it was a few days ago and uh the

488
00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:18,780
document includes so he goes through

489
00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:20,340
like it's only two pages but it's like

490
00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:22,620
three paragraphs he's like so what is

491
00:19:27,049 --> 00:19:24,660
going on here number one

492
00:19:28,490 --> 00:19:27,059
um the really high speeds the shapes of

493
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:28,500
potentially triangular objects are

494
00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:31,260
consistent with like some Advanced uh

495
00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:33,660
you know technology fighter craft and

496
00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:34,980
stuff that we're developing in the

497
00:19:39,529 --> 00:19:36,660
states and then he goes to the second

498
00:19:41,470 --> 00:19:39,539
paragraph and he says

499
00:19:44,029 --> 00:19:41,480
um there are

500
00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:44,039
atmospheric phenomena that our little

501
00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:46,580
understood he says that there are

502
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:48,140
potentially

503
00:19:53,870 --> 00:19:51,120
semi-stable plasma structures that can

504
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:53,880
form in the atmosphere and then he links

505
00:19:59,390 --> 00:19:57,240
to an a document about skirmians which

506
00:20:02,690 --> 00:19:59,400
are the lab reproducible by lightning

507
00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:02,700
equivalence yeah right so uh that's

508
00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:04,620
interesting that he has the second

509
00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:06,840
option he's like Advanced Fighters being

510
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,780
seen some kind of atmospheric plasma

511
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:11,760
phenomena semi-stable state that we

512
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:14,400
aren't super uh familiar with and then

513
00:20:18,409 --> 00:20:16,100
the third thing he says a potentially

514
00:20:19,850 --> 00:20:18,419
extraterrestrials but then he says oh

515
00:20:21,409 --> 00:20:19,860
it's quite interesting because he's like

516
00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:21,419
oh based on the technology level

517
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:23,340
required to get here they could choose

518
00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:26,039
to not be seen so in his view what we're

519
00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:28,679
seeing as UFOs doesn't meet what he

520
00:20:33,529 --> 00:20:31,080
would expect from such a highly Advanced

521
00:20:37,310 --> 00:20:33,539
uh civilization and so he says it's very

522
00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:37,320
unlikely because of the observed uh you

523
00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:39,480
know features it's very unlikely to be

524
00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:40,620
extraterrestrial which I think is

525
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:43,080
interesting to even addresses it

526
00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:44,820
um but yeah yeah did you guys have any

527
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:46,980
thoughts on that rundown uh quite

528
00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:49,440
interesting I like Nick what about you

529
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,720
uh the Extraterrestrial art I'm a little

530
00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:53,520
doobie stuff obviously I mean like I

531
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,559
said there's never anything conclusively

532
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,360
extraterrestrial about any of the

533
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,039
sightings but um

534
00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:01,200
I hey I like the atmospheric plasma

535
00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:03,240
shout out that's that's kind of

536
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,640
interesting I think so yeah right yeah

537
00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:07,440
it's nice that it's getting some uh some

538
00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:09,840
play Oh spooky was just asking was it

539
00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:11,220
written for us no it was a it was an

540
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:13,020
internal report that was not supposed to

541
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:14,880
be uh publicly released but it was

542
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:17,280
subject to foia and Greenwald got it

543
00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:18,480
that way

544
00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:20,220
yeah and it sounds like a few of the

545
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:22,440
audience members here I have shy Khan

546
00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:24,960
saying that the five observables here

547
00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:27,480
predates Elizondo and then we have our

548
00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:30,780
beloved simonfly saying that he thinks

549
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,520
Elizondo did come up with this as his

550
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:35,039
side hustle at eight times so not a

551
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:43,010
where's that book

552
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:44,940
yeah where is that it's coming out like

553
00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:47,640
2024 actually the book that I did Chris

554
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,380
bledsoe's book is coming out like

555
00:21:54,049 --> 00:21:51,840
imminently like in the next four weeks

556
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:54,059
yes UFO of God looking forward to

557
00:22:03,169 --> 00:22:00,950
about the um the five observables Travis

558
00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:03,179
Taylor hmm he might have been involved

559
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:07,020
with that eh oh who knows yeah oh okay I

560
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:08,340
don't know I don't know he would be an

561
00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:09,840
interesting figure though because of his

562
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:12,900
I do have to eat that book I won't have

563
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:14,580
to eat them it's not coming in it's

564
00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:17,220
never gonna come out yeah how can I eat

565
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:18,900
it if it never comes out

566
00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:21,600
we'll see I you know what if it does I

567
00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:23,700
gotta I gotta really look into how to

568
00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:25,860
actually consume a book but I'm actually

569
00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:28,740
worried I'm I'm feeling relaxed I don't

570
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:29,880
think we're gonna be seeing that thing

571
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:34,140
it'll be your uh fiber intake for oh for

572
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:36,780
sure there's got to be a way to like

573
00:22:39,890 --> 00:22:38,159
physically do it I'm sure I'll be yeah

574
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:39,900
just like shred it up and put it in like

575
00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:42,000
pasta or something I don't know like

576
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:44,159
okay yeah I feel like I'm drawing on

577
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,960
like all sorts of like drug ingesting

578
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:47,280
modalities

579
00:22:50,690 --> 00:22:49,620
like recommend how you actually eat a

580
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:50,700
book

581
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:51,860
um

582
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:53,880
across that bridge when I come to it if

583
00:23:00,289 --> 00:22:57,840
I come to it which I don't plan on

584
00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:00,299
we'll see

585
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,740
um and well Leah what about you what did

586
00:23:06,590 --> 00:23:03,840
you think of the like the current

587
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,600
chairman of the UAP study group at Nasa

588
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:08,640
like his rundown of those three uh

589
00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:10,320
things like how does that comply with

590
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:14,100
your view yeah so you know I um I mean

591
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:15,960
this this confirms sort of my general

592
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:19,260
view like I uh

593
00:23:24,110 --> 00:23:21,600
my

594
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:24,120
where I sit in this kind of universe is

595
00:23:31,250 --> 00:23:27,720
generally that like I think

596
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:31,260
I I find Notions of extraterrestrial EG

597
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:33,000
like literal aliens coming from other

598
00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:34,740
planets visiting the United States an

599
00:23:41,289 --> 00:23:37,559
extremely long boat to draw I do think

600
00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:41,299
there are uh very compelling

601
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:44,820
uh not necessarily agreeing but very

602
00:23:48,529 --> 00:23:46,380
compelling

603
00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:48,539
um Notions around non-human intelligence

604
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:50,520
and engagements whether it's with like

605
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:52,860
non-localized Consciousness or sort of

606
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:53,820
like I think there's a lot of

607
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:55,860
permutations that can take that far

608
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:58,080
exceeds sort of the conventional like

609
00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:00,480
aliens from another planet

610
00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:03,900
um you know I think as a steward of this

611
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:08,280
project he is under kind of a

612
00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:12,240
like he's under an obligation to

613
00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:14,520
seriously interrogate this subject which

614
00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:16,740
in turn means evaluating and not

615
00:24:20,690 --> 00:24:19,140
dismissing any of the possibilities but

616
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:20,700
also that it is

617
00:24:25,310 --> 00:24:23,340
again as a steward of this subject and

618
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,320
as someone who

619
00:24:30,890 --> 00:24:27,960
um has a demonstrated track record of

620
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:30,900
serious academic contribution like

621
00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:33,120
he has to serve as a filter and not a

622
00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:34,980
sponge otherwise the entire project is

623
00:24:39,549 --> 00:24:36,780
going to get sunk into pursuing all

624
00:24:43,370 --> 00:24:39,559
these little minutia instead of what is

625
00:24:46,970 --> 00:24:43,380
logistically speaking most likely to be

626
00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:48,710
so I mean I don't know it feels like a

627
00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:50,700
very reasonable conclusion I also agree

628
00:24:54,649 --> 00:24:52,620
with him I mean his statement about like

629
00:24:56,690 --> 00:24:54,659
if it is extraterrestrials like they're

630
00:24:58,850 --> 00:24:56,700
not going to be witnessed is like balls

631
00:24:59,630 --> 00:24:58,860
of plasma gas seems pretty reasonable to

632
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,640
me

633
00:25:03,049 --> 00:25:01,200
um The Only Exception being if we're

634
00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:03,059
gonna go far afield in the Deep woo and

635
00:25:06,529 --> 00:25:04,679
be like well maybe the plasma is like

636
00:25:08,750 --> 00:25:06,539
exhibit some degree of Consciousness or

637
00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:08,760
self-organization uh those are not

638
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:10,440
interchangeable self-organization

639
00:25:13,370 --> 00:25:12,720
doesn't mean something's conscious

640
00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:13,380
um

641
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:17,580
but uh that seems like a maybe a bit too

642
00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:21,360
um fine grain or nuanced uh to come out

643
00:25:24,529 --> 00:25:22,980
of just like a basic memo so I don't

644
00:25:26,510 --> 00:25:24,539
know I feel stimuli like he's being a

645
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,520
good Steward of the subject and I also

646
00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:27,840
feel like he certainly has the

647
00:25:32,450 --> 00:25:29,900
credentials to uh treat this subject

648
00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:32,460
seriously and with a degree of uh like

649
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:34,820
legitimacy that it deserves

650
00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:37,919
interesting and Louise just to wrap up

651
00:25:43,310 --> 00:25:40,620
on this what do you think of that

652
00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:43,320
uh what specifically oh sorry yes the uh

653
00:25:49,549 --> 00:25:47,640
the the two-page uh Voyage uh report by

654
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:49,559
John Greenwald would that summarized the

655
00:25:54,769 --> 00:25:52,559
current Chairman's uh views being number

656
00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:54,779
one uh

657
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,940
technology number two atmospheric

658
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,799
phenomena number three extraterrestrials

659
00:26:03,529 --> 00:26:01,200
but very unlikely

660
00:26:04,970 --> 00:26:03,539
yeah that sounds like a

661
00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:04,980
reasonable

662
00:26:10,810 --> 00:26:05,700
um

663
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:10,820
you know hierarchy yeah you approve yeah

664
00:26:16,010 --> 00:26:13,679
excellent another point for the plasma I

665
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:16,020
guess yeah

666
00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:17,760
I mean another rate like it's super cool

667
00:26:21,169 --> 00:26:19,860
right like it's just an opportunity to

668
00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:21,179
learn more about the kind of Mysterious

669
00:26:24,769 --> 00:26:22,980
Universe we inhabit and I think that's

670
00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:24,779
really exciting you know yeah like at

671
00:26:29,630 --> 00:26:26,220
the end of the day it's super cool

672
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:29,640
and I think it's pretty uh it could uh

673
00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:31,320
spiral into what we're going to be

674
00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:32,760
talking about with Lake Michigan because

675
00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:34,980
of the

676
00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:38,039
um observed features on radar of like uh

677
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:40,260
forming uh some geometric shapes at

678
00:26:44,029 --> 00:26:42,000
times like apparent triangles and stuff

679
00:26:45,950 --> 00:26:44,039
which is what a feature of scorpions in

680
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,960
the lab forming right needles uh and

681
00:26:49,130 --> 00:26:47,279
rectangles and things like that so

682
00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:49,140
pretty cool I drew a picture for you

683
00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:51,360
Campbell oh yeah what's the type of

684
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:54,600
picture we'll see we'll see oh nice this

685
00:27:00,169 --> 00:26:57,179
is this was an excellent segue into uh

686
00:27:02,269 --> 00:27:00,179
the 1994 Lake Michigan case should I

687
00:27:03,409 --> 00:27:02,279
kick it off yeah take it away Nick

688
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:03,419
that's what we're going to talk about

689
00:27:11,149 --> 00:27:07,740
yeah so okay March 8 1994.

690
00:27:12,409 --> 00:27:11,159
um it was a clear night cold

691
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:12,419
um

692
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:15,480
technically uh the Aurora Borealis was

693
00:27:20,029 --> 00:27:18,120
visible in uh parts of Michigan though

694
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,039
growing up in Michigan they say that a

695
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:22,559
lot and you can't quite see it but it's

696
00:27:28,010 --> 00:27:25,919
uh it's a data point right so around 9

697
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:28,020
00 p.m in Grand Haven which is uh about

698
00:27:32,210 --> 00:27:30,480
30 miles north of Holland where the most

699
00:27:34,909 --> 00:27:32,220
of the on ground underground sightings

700
00:27:36,049 --> 00:27:34,919
happen a woman named Cindy Pravda was in

701
00:27:38,269 --> 00:27:36,059
her kitchen looking out her window

702
00:27:39,710 --> 00:27:38,279
talking on a phone to her friend and she

703
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,720
witnessed and Leah can you pull up the

704
00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:41,520
first slide there

705
00:27:47,930 --> 00:27:44,220
I can I can add the slides to the stream

706
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:47,940
but you're on your own pal sure okay

707
00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:50,460
um so what she described was uh a

708
00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:52,620
horizontal line of what she says it

709
00:27:56,990 --> 00:27:54,600
looks like four full moons uh bright

710
00:27:59,330 --> 00:27:57,000
white balls outer kitchen and the way

711
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:59,340
she uh she was facing south outer window

712
00:28:03,769 --> 00:28:01,919
and um interestingly and I don't think

713
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:03,779
this gets brought up very often the

714
00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:06,000
night before a trucker uh who was just

715
00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:08,100
south of Cindy's house on a highway

716
00:28:13,070 --> 00:28:10,919
there described a very similar sighting

717
00:28:15,769 --> 00:28:13,080
of a horizontal line of lights that he

718
00:28:17,630 --> 00:28:15,779
saw there that shot off but

719
00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:17,640
um back to Cindy this is um back on

720
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:19,140
March 8th she's looking out the window

721
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:21,900
and she sees this for uh string of four

722
00:28:25,250 --> 00:28:23,460
full moons that she calls it and the

723
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:25,260
outward one keeps shooting away and

724
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:26,880
coming back so kind of like a broken

725
00:28:32,269 --> 00:28:30,000
Newton's Cradle as uh as I show in this

726
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,279
uh this drawing here now she watches

727
00:28:36,830 --> 00:28:34,799
this for about 25 minutes half an hour

728
00:28:40,370 --> 00:28:36,840
um before it just shoots off

729
00:28:44,029 --> 00:28:40,380
so that's we're around 9 30 P.M

730
00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:44,039
now uh like I said 30 miles South in

731
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,980
Holland we start getting um the first on

732
00:28:51,049 --> 00:28:49,200
the ground Witnesses here and is this

733
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:51,059
large enough can you guys see this well

734
00:28:56,390 --> 00:28:53,940
we've got uh points one two and three

735
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:56,400
on the uh the kind of Infamous 9-1-1

736
00:29:01,610 --> 00:28:59,640
tape we uh we begin hearing the

737
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:01,620
recordings of some of the witnesses the

738
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,659
first voice you hear is Holly Graves

739
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:05,520
she's at position two here

740
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:08,100
she says what she sees and she she was

741
00:29:11,870 --> 00:29:10,260
uh this was brought to her attention by

742
00:29:14,029 --> 00:29:11,880
her children who were watching TV in the

743
00:29:15,289 --> 00:29:14,039
living room I visited this house and you

744
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:15,299
can see right out that front window

745
00:29:18,830 --> 00:29:17,760
there used to be a farm just to If

746
00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:18,840
you're looking at the strong to the

747
00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:21,899
right there that they saw it the way she

748
00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:23,940
described it on the call was like a

749
00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:26,220
string of Christmas lights up in the sky

750
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:28,860
so she seen colored lights kind of

751
00:29:33,169 --> 00:29:31,260
turning in a circle and moving in a

752
00:29:35,810 --> 00:29:33,179
Southern Direction here she's nearly on

753
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:35,820
the corner of 16th and Country Club

754
00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:38,100
um the second voice you hear is

755
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:39,720
um actually I think it's Troy Prince's

756
00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:42,059
cousin at first then Troy Prince they

757
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:43,260
were up around the corner here in

758
00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:45,440
position one on a second floor balcony

759
00:29:51,529 --> 00:29:49,020
also looking out and what they saw

760
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:51,539
um technically slightly before uh the

761
00:29:57,769 --> 00:29:55,200
graves is at position two he saw

762
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,779
a group of Lights come together and form

763
00:30:02,090 --> 00:29:59,760
a circle and it starts spinning around

764
00:30:03,470 --> 00:30:02,100
he describes it like a wreath really

765
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:03,480
similar to Holly's description of

766
00:30:06,889 --> 00:30:04,980
Christmas lights a string of lights up

767
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:06,899
in the sky he says he saw these lights

768
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:10,080
individually come together which um you

769
00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:12,480
don't hear much on the 911 call but this

770
00:30:15,769 --> 00:30:13,980
is Officer velthouse the responding

771
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:15,779
officers uh incident report here where

772
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:18,240
it goes into a little bit more detail of

773
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,320
them coming together and uh traveling in

774
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:24,480
the same distance so at this point you

775
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:26,480
have people at position one and two both

776
00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,520
seeing this and describing it on tape in

777
00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:31,080
real time

778
00:30:35,930 --> 00:30:33,779
um the third uh the next voice you hear

779
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:35,940
is actually Holly's husband Daryl I

780
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:37,860
confirmed that with her personally

781
00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:40,320
um fairly recently and what he describes

782
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:41,880
is he says he thought that maybe there

783
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:44,100
were balloons with lights attached to

784
00:30:47,090 --> 00:30:45,600
them because by the time he's seeing

785
00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:47,100
this by the time the kids get him and

786
00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:49,140
out all out of the house to look at this

787
00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:51,240
they've split up again so they're no

788
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:52,980
longer in that Circle formation that the

789
00:30:56,810 --> 00:30:54,720
kids originally saw and Drew pictures of

790
00:30:59,409 --> 00:30:56,820
and they're spreading apart and moving

791
00:31:02,570 --> 00:30:59,419
south down Country Club Country Club

792
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,580
sorry Country Club Road

793
00:31:06,649 --> 00:31:04,559
um by this point they say that there's

794
00:31:09,169 --> 00:31:06,659
an officer on the way he's going to come

795
00:31:12,169 --> 00:31:09,179
to their house to observe this

796
00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:12,179
now Holly the the first 911 call is

797
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,440
Holly it took place at 9 35 PM uh by 9

798
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:18,720
45 officer velthouse has arrived at this

799
00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:21,539
house but just slightly before then um

800
00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:23,700
an anonymous woman and her son at

801
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:25,260
position three here this is about two

802
00:31:31,029 --> 00:31:27,919
miles south so right down Country Club

803
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:31,039
they described seeing these lights also

804
00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:34,679
split up now motionless hovering kind of

805
00:31:39,649 --> 00:31:37,500
before uh kind of in the middle of this

806
00:31:42,289 --> 00:31:39,659
drawing here the middle of this art

807
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:42,299
they're motionless sitting there which

808
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,399
uh Daryl Graves also describes later

809
00:31:48,169 --> 00:31:46,320
when the police officer shows up but

810
00:31:51,470 --> 00:31:48,179
then they start moving south again

811
00:31:53,570 --> 00:31:51,480
this is 9 45 PM now officer velt house

812
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:53,580
arrives at Daryl and Holly Graves home

813
00:31:57,889 --> 00:31:55,919
and he Witnesses these objects too

814
00:31:59,930 --> 00:31:57,899
through Daryl's binoculars and he says

815
00:32:01,789 --> 00:31:59,940
that they don't appear to be aircraft

816
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:01,799
lights that they're kind of oscillating

817
00:32:06,649 --> 00:32:05,039
and he sees them in two clusters so he

818
00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:06,659
starts traveling south forearm Country

819
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:08,760
Club to try to catch up with him he says

820
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:10,440
he never does he ends up getting to a

821
00:32:13,909 --> 00:32:11,760
small airport that's south of there

822
00:32:16,370 --> 00:32:13,919
called tulip City airport but they had

823
00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:16,380
been closed since I think 8 pm

824
00:32:22,370 --> 00:32:19,140
and he loses sight of them so I want to

825
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:22,380
like this is right before the uh the

826
00:32:25,310 --> 00:32:23,760
radar portion takes place so I'm going

827
00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:25,320
to stop here see if there's any

828
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:26,700
questions

829
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:27,240
um

830
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:31,020
about the uh Simon Says military flares

831
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:33,240
I don't know based on the based on the

832
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,480
movement possibly maybe

833
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,640
um but yeah any questions so far on this

834
00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:40,320
let's see yeah we have another question

835
00:32:45,289 --> 00:32:42,899
from swink McLeod here any idea how far

836
00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:45,299
up or how big these lights were now this

837
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:46,140
was

838
00:32:53,930 --> 00:32:51,240
at this point by mufon by holding up

839
00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:53,940
objects at the end of uh oh yeah like a

840
00:32:58,970 --> 00:32:57,059
quarter or a nickel or whatever 3 000

841
00:33:01,370 --> 00:32:58,980
was what they came up with but keep in

842
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:01,380
mind these are lights in the sky

843
00:33:06,590 --> 00:33:04,799
um so not very accurate and the radar uh

844
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:06,600
then the next section that provides some

845
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,159
more information about that right

846
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:10,799
because uh yeah so she's saying uh from

847
00:33:14,509 --> 00:33:12,299
six to eight thousand feet I think it's

848
00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:14,519
uh mentioned on my slide

849
00:33:19,789 --> 00:33:15,960
um there's some contention to that uh

850
00:33:22,690 --> 00:33:19,799
Michael swords did the uh one of the uh

851
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:22,700
the further investigations and he

852
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:25,919
contend that um Jack Bouchon the radar

853
00:33:31,669 --> 00:33:28,880
operator meant kilometers not feet

854
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:31,679
and just misspoke I don't know about the

855
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:33,000
accuracy of that Jack has never

856
00:33:36,649 --> 00:33:34,440
corrected that I've talked to him

857
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,659
multiple times and um

858
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,360
he didn't seem to think so

859
00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:41,279
um I have a question this is maybe more

860
00:33:45,769 --> 00:33:44,100
of a people style question but in these

861
00:33:48,430 --> 00:33:45,779
circumstances what do you think prompts

862
00:33:51,169 --> 00:33:48,440
people to call 9-1-1

863
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:51,179
the second question would be I haven't

864
00:33:55,310 --> 00:33:52,500
listened to these phone calls but are

865
00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:55,320
people distressed on the call no they

866
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:57,720
seem amazed they're amused kind of

867
00:34:02,990 --> 00:34:00,059
they're chuckling they're like most of

868
00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:03,000
them uh kind of preface they're like I I

869
00:34:07,070 --> 00:34:05,220
know this isn't an emergency but I'm

870
00:34:08,329 --> 00:34:07,080
seeing something really weird can you

871
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:08,339
come check it out

872
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:11,760
and you can hear the operators uh kind

873
00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:14,760
of take on it change over at first he's

874
00:34:18,409 --> 00:34:16,740
like uh-huh okay yeah we're sending it

875
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:18,419
and then more and more our people are

876
00:34:21,710 --> 00:34:20,220
coming he's like oh my God you can hear

877
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:21,720
him getting kind of excited and a little

878
00:34:25,849 --> 00:34:23,940
weirded out especially when he ends up

879
00:34:27,710 --> 00:34:25,859
reaching out to the National Weather

880
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:27,720
Service which is in Muskegon kind of

881
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:29,280
close to Grand Haven where this starts

882
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:31,560
so they call the weather office if if

883
00:34:34,609 --> 00:34:32,940
you don't mind me moving on I'll switch

884
00:34:36,169 --> 00:34:34,619
tomorrow I was gonna say we still have a

885
00:34:38,270 --> 00:34:36,179
couple questions

886
00:34:40,129 --> 00:34:38,280
um so we have one another one from swink

887
00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:40,139
didn't people see them for hours because

888
00:34:44,329 --> 00:34:42,780
like we're already talking at least an

889
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:44,339
hour probably right because the first

890
00:34:48,889 --> 00:34:45,839
person saw them for just about 100

891
00:34:51,649 --> 00:34:48,899
minutes it's it's kind it's kind of uh

892
00:34:54,889 --> 00:34:51,659
hard to estimate I would say that Jack

893
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:54,899
the radar operator was called around 9

894
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:57,960
50. that's my best guess it's uh it's

895
00:35:01,130 --> 00:34:59,040
not certain

896
00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:01,140
now technically the radar operator did

897
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:03,420
watch them for hours uh the on the

898
00:35:08,329 --> 00:35:06,480
ground Witnesses it was more like 20 25

899
00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:08,339
minutes

900
00:35:12,890 --> 00:35:10,440
um or at least this group there were a

901
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:12,900
smattering of people uh between here and

902
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:15,000
the south end of the border of Michigan

903
00:35:19,010 --> 00:35:18,060
seeing brief sightings

904
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:19,020
um I've talked to a couple other

905
00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:20,160
Witnesses

906
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:21,900
and oh my friend Dylan's in the chat

907
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,000
asking me a question um

908
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:26,160
but you know they're a brief let's see

909
00:35:29,450 --> 00:35:28,020
which is Christmas you say they were

910
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:29,460
colored some Christian songs are just

911
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:30,300
white

912
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:33,119
um she spoke to me just a few days ago

913
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:34,320
and she said they were also blue and

914
00:35:37,490 --> 00:35:35,280
green

915
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:37,500
so not just white in the Unsolved

916
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:40,500
Mysteries episode uh they also quote a

917
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:42,540
police officer saying that they saw

918
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:45,060
multi-colored in the same way yes that

919
00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:46,320
was officer belt house he was the

920
00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:49,560
responding here at the graves Helm okay

921
00:35:53,390 --> 00:35:51,660
um okay moving on to the radar section

922
00:35:57,290 --> 00:35:53,400
or do we have a couple more questions

923
00:35:59,450 --> 00:35:57,300
did did James oberg ever weigh in on

924
00:36:01,790 --> 00:35:59,460
this like uh maybe that it was a

925
00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:01,800
satellite re-entry or something I

926
00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:05,339
haven't heard that okay or possibly

927
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:07,320
so we get to this point

928
00:36:12,109 --> 00:36:09,599
um Ottawa County dispatch is getting

929
00:36:13,849 --> 00:36:12,119
he makes a claim that there was a uh

930
00:36:15,770 --> 00:36:13,859
roughly 60 calls I don't know the

931
00:36:18,890 --> 00:36:15,780
accuracy of that um but that is what's

932
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:18,900
recorded so he is advised to call the

933
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:19,920
National Weather Service because they

934
00:36:23,450 --> 00:36:21,900
have a weather uh weather radar there up

935
00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:23,460
in Muskegon and he wants to see if they

936
00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:25,740
can show up on anything there at this

937
00:36:29,089 --> 00:36:27,960
point the uh the dispatch officer is

938
00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:29,099
suggesting that they're seeing radio

939
00:36:32,569 --> 00:36:31,500
towers uh bunking lights of radio towers

940
00:36:34,849 --> 00:36:32,579
though

941
00:36:38,270 --> 00:36:34,859
um the Sun the anonymous sun in position

942
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:38,280
three uh denies that

943
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:40,800
so that's his incident report they talk

944
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:42,180
about speaking to Detroit Prince who's

945
00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:44,160
up around the corner a little bit in

946
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:45,900
Holly Graves

947
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:47,640
essentially seeing he saw lights they're

948
00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:49,680
oscillating they're very strange tried

949
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:51,480
to follow them and lost them

950
00:36:57,770 --> 00:36:54,480
now we get to the radar operator who

951
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:57,780
starts picking up uh returns anomalous

952
00:37:01,849 --> 00:37:00,240
returns at about South Haven which I

953
00:37:03,770 --> 00:37:01,859
think is another 30 or 40 miles miles

954
00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:03,780
south along the coast

955
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,300
first he picks up one large return here

956
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:08,880
he says they're very bright meaning

957
00:37:14,510 --> 00:37:11,160
um that they are reflecting the majority

958
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,520
of the radar beam that it's sending out

959
00:37:18,109 --> 00:37:16,320
um you don't get like a shape or

960
00:37:20,329 --> 00:37:18,119
anything on the radar screen just kind

961
00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:20,339
of a hit he's what he's saying is that

962
00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:22,140
they're brighter than like conventional

963
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:24,060
aircraft or storms

964
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:27,359
um in one of I I've spoken to jack a lot

965
00:37:30,829 --> 00:37:28,560
of times

966
00:37:32,569 --> 00:37:30,839
um in one of the conversations he said

967
00:37:35,390 --> 00:37:32,579
it crossed his mind at the time that

968
00:37:36,829 --> 00:37:35,400
they might be assisting the radar in

969
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:36,839
some way just because of how bright they

970
00:37:42,050 --> 00:37:39,119
were kind of um shocked him he thought

971
00:37:43,609 --> 00:37:42,060
maybe they were contributing to it

972
00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:43,619
um and he said he definitely had the

973
00:37:48,109 --> 00:37:45,960
impression that they were aware of not

974
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:48,119
only him observing them but the method

975
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:49,980
in which he was observing them this is

976
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:52,500
all an intuitive feeling that he had and

977
00:37:58,910 --> 00:37:55,680
this is yeah so by the method he means

978
00:38:01,550 --> 00:37:58,920
that he felt like intuitively that they

979
00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:01,560
could were reacting to being

980
00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:03,540
um like observed on radar kind of

981
00:38:07,490 --> 00:38:05,700
speculatively okay interesting yeah this

982
00:38:09,470 --> 00:38:07,500
reminds me of it reminds me of the

983
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:09,480
Hudson Valley sightings where people

984
00:38:16,190 --> 00:38:12,720
felt like viewed with a sense of

985
00:38:17,870 --> 00:38:16,200
transcendence or inter interaction with

986
00:38:20,270 --> 00:38:17,880
what they're really saying yeah it's

987
00:38:22,490 --> 00:38:20,280
interesting so uh I drew this diagram to

988
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,500
kind of describe the way he was seeing

989
00:38:27,410 --> 00:38:24,720
them so he was seeing them essentially

990
00:38:29,089 --> 00:38:27,420
cluster well first it was one contact

991
00:38:32,329 --> 00:38:29,099
and then it was three and they were kind

992
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:32,339
of moving in a South Western Direction

993
00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:34,440
um and what he said was that they were

994
00:38:37,010 --> 00:38:36,119
uh sorry we got some questions in a

995
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:37,020
minute

996
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:38,160
um he said that they were in a

997
00:38:40,430 --> 00:38:39,359
triangular formation because when you're

998
00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:40,440
looking at the radar screen you're

999
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:43,320
looking at a top-down perspective but

1000
00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:46,020
each of the each of the returns were at

1001
00:38:50,990 --> 00:38:47,640
different elevations and they would move

1002
00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:51,000
up and down in elevation but remain in a

1003
00:38:55,790 --> 00:38:53,339
triangular formation and they would kind

1004
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:55,800
of uh one would shoot off and then the

1005
00:39:00,370 --> 00:38:57,839
rest would follow and meet up and

1006
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:00,380
uh kind of meet in that formation again

1007
00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:03,240
not too unlike what Cindy Pravda

1008
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:05,160
described at the beginning of the uh

1009
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:07,260
sightings see a formation of the four

1010
00:39:12,829 --> 00:39:09,839
only horizontal and one would shoot off

1011
00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:12,839
and come back and then they all moved

1012
00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:13,700
so

1013
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:16,260
similar characteristics though I do want

1014
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:17,700
to point out and this is really

1015
00:39:21,890 --> 00:39:19,500
important that we um we can't

1016
00:39:23,329 --> 00:39:21,900
conclusively connect these on the ground

1017
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:23,339
visual sightings with the radar

1018
00:39:28,490 --> 00:39:25,859
sightings there is no point where we can

1019
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:28,500
actually like nail down that someone was

1020
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,420
looking at it and Jack was looking at it

1021
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:32,640
at the same time I thought that was

1022
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:36,720
so it's like at best it's like maybe

1023
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:40,560
tightly correlated but there's no exact

1024
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:42,900
direct line between the two it's moving

1025
00:39:47,630 --> 00:39:45,780
in the general same kind of curve that I

1026
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:47,640
showed in um

1027
00:39:53,329 --> 00:39:49,980
in this slide here only on a larger

1028
00:39:55,550 --> 00:39:53,339
scale moving out past the coast of uh

1029
00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:55,560
uh Lake Michigan so the western coast of

1030
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:57,180
Michigan

1031
00:40:01,970 --> 00:40:00,240
um here's a radar blank um so Jack

1032
00:40:03,829 --> 00:40:01,980
watches these from

1033
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:03,839
you know like I said I kind of estimated

1034
00:40:08,210 --> 00:40:07,200
around 10 p.m till midnight now

1035
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:08,220
um

1036
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:11,040
he says by midnight they kind of swarmed

1037
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:12,660
up here at the bottom where these red

1038
00:40:17,390 --> 00:40:15,180
dots are in Lake Michigan and he said

1039
00:40:19,010 --> 00:40:17,400
that he saw more returns coming in from

1040
00:40:20,510 --> 00:40:19,020
different directions and they all met at

1041
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:20,520
this point and he describes it as kind

1042
00:40:23,329 --> 00:40:21,240
of like

1043
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:23,339
a beehive or an ant hill where they were

1044
00:40:27,290 --> 00:40:24,960
just kind of moving around there and he

1045
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:27,300
says he watched them till about midnight

1046
00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:31,980
now I wanted to address a comment I saw

1047
00:40:34,609 --> 00:40:32,820
um

1048
00:40:36,349 --> 00:40:34,619
it was about the

1049
00:40:38,990 --> 00:40:36,359
it was by hinch whether radar Jack

1050
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:39,000
interviewed on the radar uh ended shift

1051
00:40:42,290 --> 00:40:40,320
at midnight and which time he said there

1052
00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:42,300
were does I don't know that was what I

1053
00:40:46,970 --> 00:40:44,640
was talking about someone mentioned the

1054
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:46,980
um the waterfall UFO that was meant that

1055
00:40:52,609 --> 00:40:50,880
was shown in Unsolved Mysteries now the

1056
00:40:56,270 --> 00:40:52,619
narrative that that episode kind of

1057
00:40:58,609 --> 00:40:56,280
pushed was that uh

1058
00:41:01,130 --> 00:40:58,619
was that that sighting was taking place

1059
00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:01,140
at the same time he was watching them on

1060
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:02,940
radar and it kind of pinpointed and

1061
00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:06,720
corroborated it now if you if you recall

1062
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:08,700
um these things were all moving between

1063
00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:11,640
10 and 11 down to this position and he

1064
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:13,320
watched them you know 11 to midnight

1065
00:41:18,290 --> 00:41:15,900
Midnight was the time that those people

1066
00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:18,300
claimed that they saw it on the

1067
00:41:21,829 --> 00:41:19,859
they were sleeping on the coast of

1068
00:41:25,310 --> 00:41:21,839
Benton Harbor which is a little north

1069
00:41:26,810 --> 00:41:25,320
north and quite a bit east of this this

1070
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:26,820
point here

1071
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:28,380
um so the timeline doesn't really match

1072
00:41:32,930 --> 00:41:32,160
up and I'm I'm really dubious of that

1073
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:32,940
account

1074
00:41:36,589 --> 00:41:34,800
um while it very well may be an original

1075
00:41:37,490 --> 00:41:36,599
account from the time

1076
00:41:39,530 --> 00:41:37,500
um

1077
00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:39,540
it appeared to have come from one of the

1078
00:41:43,490 --> 00:41:41,700
original Witnesses uh or I'm sorry one

1079
00:41:46,550 --> 00:41:43,500
of the original investigators from mufon

1080
00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:46,560
uh Jenny Tilly now she hadn't reported

1081
00:41:51,790 --> 00:41:49,560
on this citing in particular ever so

1082
00:41:55,609 --> 00:41:51,800
this this sighting was new to this show

1083
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:55,619
and uh yeah when um when we're talking

1084
00:41:59,210 --> 00:41:57,359
about the event at what point in the

1085
00:42:01,370 --> 00:41:59,220
chronology of the event is mufon

1086
00:42:03,890 --> 00:42:01,380
involved like do they come out the next

1087
00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:03,900
day do they come out two weeks later

1088
00:42:08,329 --> 00:42:06,660
it's hard to pinpoint you know I've read

1089
00:42:11,089 --> 00:42:08,339
um I've read their personal reports and

1090
00:42:13,569 --> 00:42:11,099
I've read their Journal article and they

1091
00:42:16,310 --> 00:42:13,579
are very vague about that I know it's

1092
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:16,320
fairly quickly because there is a

1093
00:42:19,010 --> 00:42:17,760
Michigan chapter they show up fairly

1094
00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:19,020
quickly I want to say what it's it's

1095
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:22,740
within a week or so so uh I don't think

1096
00:42:26,810 --> 00:42:24,480
it's specifically known except for to

1097
00:42:28,370 --> 00:42:26,820
those people Donald K Ashley Jr and

1098
00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:28,380
Virginia Tilly were the move on

1099
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:30,420
investigators right

1100
00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:31,680
so

1101
00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:34,500
um as I was saying uh clear night cold

1102
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:36,060
night uh it's the middle of March in

1103
00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:36,900
Michigan

1104
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:39,720
Jack uh and I in a bunch of our

1105
00:42:43,010 --> 00:42:41,160
conversations he always brings up the

1106
00:42:44,569 --> 00:42:43,020
fact that Lake Michigan was frozen over

1107
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:44,579
that night but he believed that this

1108
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:47,040
southern region here where they all met

1109
00:42:49,550 --> 00:42:47,880
up

1110
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,560
um was one of the only spots on Lake

1111
00:42:53,870 --> 00:42:51,420
Michigan that wasn't frozen over

1112
00:42:56,030 --> 00:42:53,880
and he and I were having a discussion I

1113
00:42:57,470 --> 00:42:56,040
said you know I believe the NOAA or at

1114
00:42:59,870 --> 00:42:57,480
least somebody keeps ice records of

1115
00:43:01,010 --> 00:42:59,880
those which I did find here and here

1116
00:43:03,890 --> 00:43:01,020
these are two records from actually

1117
00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:03,900
these are the the night before but if

1118
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:05,400
you notice this section down here this

1119
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:08,160
Lavender is uh five percent ice coverage

1120
00:43:13,790 --> 00:43:10,680
when the majority of it is about 96 here

1121
00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:13,800
that purple is about 90. so he was

1122
00:43:15,770 --> 00:43:15,180
correct

1123
00:43:17,809 --> 00:43:15,780
um

1124
00:43:20,210 --> 00:43:17,819
all right there

1125
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:20,220
it could be a coincidence uh I I don't

1126
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:21,660
see any like causal link between these

1127
00:43:25,010 --> 00:43:22,740
two things

1128
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:25,020
um personally though it is another data

1129
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:26,520
point that I want to bring up however

1130
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:27,599
this is

1131
00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:30,480
um while doing uh kind of preliminary

1132
00:43:34,370 --> 00:43:31,980
research for the Unsolved Mystery

1133
00:43:35,809 --> 00:43:34,380
episode and during the filming um I did

1134
00:43:37,970 --> 00:43:35,819
notice that they put an emphasis on

1135
00:43:40,430 --> 00:43:37,980
asking me questions about water

1136
00:43:41,809 --> 00:43:40,440
sightings along Lake Michigan I believe

1137
00:43:43,609 --> 00:43:41,819
that was part of the story they were

1138
00:43:45,770 --> 00:43:43,619
telling also

1139
00:43:48,589 --> 00:43:45,780
um I think that episode did a fairly

1140
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,599
good job with telling the story

1141
00:43:53,109 --> 00:43:50,640
um in their limited time I know they'd

1142
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:53,119
cut things down and stuff like that

1143
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:55,680
but uh it's it's helpful to remember

1144
00:44:00,290 --> 00:43:58,020
that this is a story it's a TV show it's

1145
00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:00,300
for entertainment and um

1146
00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:03,060
narratives are added along with that so

1147
00:44:08,329 --> 00:44:04,980
him coming Jack coming back to Michigan

1148
00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:08,339
to solve this to to line up uh the radar

1149
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:10,380
sightings in the visual sightings that

1150
00:44:13,970 --> 00:44:11,460
was kind of what they were going for

1151
00:44:16,910 --> 00:44:13,980
with the episode and they included that

1152
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:16,920
waterfall UFO to kind of emphasize that

1153
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,500
story now it's of my personal opinion

1154
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:21,599
that um there may have been some

1155
00:44:25,730 --> 00:44:23,579
confabulation there there was another

1156
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:25,740
case in 1994 in Australia I think we

1157
00:44:29,930 --> 00:44:27,900
talked about this a little bit last time

1158
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:29,940
um Gosford Lake I believe it was that

1159
00:44:34,970 --> 00:44:32,880
involved sightings of UFOs sucking up

1160
00:44:36,650 --> 00:44:34,980
water from a reservoir or a lake or it

1161
00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:36,660
was a lake

1162
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:38,280
um and I think that they may have

1163
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:40,440
confabulated those like I said this

1164
00:44:43,609 --> 00:44:42,240
could be an original account

1165
00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:43,619
um that waterfall UFO but I've

1166
00:44:47,329 --> 00:44:44,940
personally never heard it it's never

1167
00:44:49,010 --> 00:44:47,339
been reported on so and I don't really

1168
00:44:52,730 --> 00:44:49,020
think it adds any value to the story

1169
00:44:55,849 --> 00:44:52,740
it's not corroborated by um the 911

1170
00:44:56,809 --> 00:44:55,859
or um or Jack really it's just another

1171
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,819
story

1172
00:45:00,589 --> 00:44:58,079
um I wouldn't put too much value into

1173
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,599
that I find it very interesting that it

1174
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,400
was added I think I mentioned this last

1175
00:45:07,849 --> 00:45:05,040
week too but like most of the comments I

1176
00:45:11,089 --> 00:45:07,859
see about that episode seem to revolve

1177
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:11,099
around this uh water UFO thing isn't

1178
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,119
that interesting

1179
00:45:16,010 --> 00:45:13,680
um yeah it's really capturing people's

1180
00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:16,020
attention it's quite intriguing and I

1181
00:45:19,370 --> 00:45:17,880
mean like like I said these claims you

1182
00:45:23,089 --> 00:45:19,380
hear about this happening I think even

1183
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:23,099
the wynicue reservoir back in like 65 I

1184
00:45:25,550 --> 00:45:24,240
think that was in six five maybe it was

1185
00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:25,560
in the 50s I believe that was doing

1186
00:45:29,809 --> 00:45:27,660
something similar and why do you think

1187
00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:29,819
why is it that the the water being

1188
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:32,760
pulled up uh the why is that so popular

1189
00:45:37,370 --> 00:45:35,640
in the psychology do you think yeah why

1190
00:45:39,650 --> 00:45:37,380
are people like I mean I think I think

1191
00:45:44,030 --> 00:45:39,660
it's becoming popular because this is

1192
00:45:46,609 --> 00:45:44,040
sort of this has entered the community's

1193
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:46,619
imagination because Elizondo has talked

1194
00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:48,480
about this right like chained to the Sea

1195
00:45:51,770 --> 00:45:50,520
talking about chains of the sea talking

1196
00:45:54,530 --> 00:45:51,780
about

1197
00:45:57,950 --> 00:45:54,540
um unidentified submersible objects yeah

1198
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:00,290
um and so I think it's kind of also just

1199
00:46:05,569 --> 00:46:02,520
speaking to the community preoccupations

1200
00:46:07,550 --> 00:46:05,579
of the moment yeah I mean this is a Lake

1201
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:07,560
Michigan UFO case maybe they wanted to

1202
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:10,560
tie the like into it um Usos like I said

1203
00:46:15,950 --> 00:46:12,800
being in Vogue again

1204
00:46:17,870 --> 00:46:15,960
there's also the um nuclear energy issue

1205
00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:17,880
that maybe these crafts are being

1206
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:20,040
powered by Fusion Energy so they're

1207
00:46:23,870 --> 00:46:21,960
[\h__\h] up water and separating the

1208
00:46:25,970 --> 00:46:23,880
they're getting the hydrogen out right

1209
00:46:27,829 --> 00:46:25,980
you know Lewis that's a great point

1210
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:27,839
because it does kind of play into that

1211
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:30,720
like free energy hydrogen there we go I

1212
00:46:35,450 --> 00:46:32,760
mean that's woven into the tapestry of

1213
00:46:37,609 --> 00:46:35,460
conspiracy theories absolutely um yeah

1214
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:37,619
and the beach they've been trying to um

1215
00:46:42,349 --> 00:46:39,900
use the the what are they called the

1216
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,359
Toca Mac reactors

1217
00:46:47,450 --> 00:46:44,400
um which you know about Campbell

1218
00:46:50,450 --> 00:46:47,460
um to try to get nuclear fusion but um

1219
00:46:53,210 --> 00:46:50,460
that's been like going for decades

1220
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:53,220
yeah that's an unusual form but uh yeah

1221
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:55,140
Soviet science somehow was better than

1222
00:46:59,690 --> 00:46:57,599
our science on the plasmas that uh

1223
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,700
creating the donut shape was more stable

1224
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:02,160
than a sphere uh it seems but uh yeah

1225
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:05,700
still no success there but interestingly

1226
00:47:11,569 --> 00:47:08,400
um something that I just remembered uh

1227
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:11,579
when you uh mentioned this uh Leah the

1228
00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:12,900
um

1229
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:15,060
Dr Massimo theodorani is the

1230
00:47:20,030 --> 00:47:16,740
astrophysicist on the Galileo project

1231
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:20,040
he's a a solar physicist I worked to

1232
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:21,660
study at the medicina radio telescope

1233
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:23,700
did the field studies at hezdoll and he

1234
00:47:28,849 --> 00:47:26,880
speculated uh back in 2004 that what he

1235
00:47:30,829 --> 00:47:28,859
was observing was some kind of

1236
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:30,839
um basically exactly what the chairman

1237
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:32,640
of NASA thing said he said some kind of

1238
00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:35,880
of plasma semi ball lightning some kind

1239
00:47:40,750 --> 00:47:37,980
of plasma phenomena occurring in these

1240
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:40,760
various areas uh now he has speculated

1241
00:47:44,329 --> 00:47:42,720
uh that

1242
00:47:45,770 --> 00:47:44,339
they're not okay I don't necessarily

1243
00:47:48,109 --> 00:47:45,780
believe this but it's interesting

1244
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:48,119
possibility that uh there may be some

1245
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:49,260
kind of mechanism we don't fully

1246
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:51,420
understand around these things and that

1247
00:47:58,010 --> 00:47:54,180
some a neutron stars then this is very

1248
00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:58,020
very highly uh speculative that UFOs

1249
00:48:02,329 --> 00:48:00,180
might actually represent a kind of

1250
00:48:04,849 --> 00:48:02,339
neutron star that is forming an Earth's

1251
00:48:06,530 --> 00:48:04,859
atmosphere because the features are so

1252
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:06,540
similar to what you would expect from a

1253
00:48:12,109 --> 00:48:09,359
neutron star there's a North uh pole a

1254
00:48:15,650 --> 00:48:12,119
South Pole the uh neutron stars that we

1255
00:48:17,809 --> 00:48:15,660
observe eject material uh out of the um

1256
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:17,819
the north the pole and then it

1257
00:48:22,370 --> 00:48:19,859
conceptually could be drawing in

1258
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:22,380
material from the other pole

1259
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,480
um the conservation of angular momentum

1260
00:48:28,730 --> 00:48:26,640
would cause the rotation this is

1261
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:28,740
fascinating yes and this is all purely

1262
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:30,540
speculative there's no evidence for this

1263
00:48:35,390 --> 00:48:33,599
but I appreciate the Aesthetics of this

1264
00:48:39,230 --> 00:48:35,400
idea though it's very yes and if you

1265
00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:39,240
look look at uh even look at a a disc

1266
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,660
Galaxy on the side it literally is a UFO

1267
00:48:47,690 --> 00:48:44,880
and uh this is what he sort of

1268
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:47,700
speculates might be it's UFOs all the

1269
00:48:52,309 --> 00:48:50,160
way down Campbell well maybe that that's

1270
00:48:54,349 --> 00:48:52,319
sort of so interesting too Eric Davis uh

1271
00:48:56,930 --> 00:48:54,359
Ken shoulders these guys uh they think

1272
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:56,940
that uh they think that the universe is

1273
00:49:01,790 --> 00:48:59,760
made up of uh tiny ball lightnings that

1274
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:01,800
are interacting in these ways and uh

1275
00:49:05,870 --> 00:49:04,079
like it's an alternate cosmology for

1276
00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:05,880
which there is not uh sufficient

1277
00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:07,800
evidence right now to support but um

1278
00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:09,420
it's an interesting underlying feature

1279
00:49:13,069 --> 00:49:11,460
that a lot of these guys who have been

1280
00:49:15,730 --> 00:49:13,079
in this for so long

1281
00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:15,740
um they're committed to an alternative

1282
00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:18,660
cosmology of the entire universe that

1283
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:22,140
replaces Dark Matter dark energy and uh

1284
00:49:26,750 --> 00:49:24,660
even gravity with pure electromagnetism

1285
00:49:28,750 --> 00:49:26,760
which is uh you know quite it's

1286
00:49:31,730 --> 00:49:28,760
fascinating

1287
00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:31,740
there was a there was a TV show

1288
00:49:40,550 --> 00:49:35,640
um going from 1993 to

1289
00:49:43,930 --> 00:49:40,560
oh [\h__\h] well 9296 called Seaquest dsv oh

1290
00:49:46,730 --> 00:49:43,940
yeah I remember that yeah yeah

1291
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:46,740
it's all in the talking dolphin and um

1292
00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:50,160
this giant um submarine and this um sort

1293
00:49:55,849 --> 00:49:53,280
of like a peacekeeping submarine and I

1294
00:49:58,910 --> 00:49:55,859
think it was fairly popular at the time

1295
00:50:00,710 --> 00:49:58,920
we had it in Australia um but um I don't

1296
00:50:05,890 --> 00:50:00,720
know maybe that's sort of aquatic theme

1297
00:50:10,990 --> 00:50:08,630
I wonder I wonder or it's all in the

1298
00:50:13,010 --> 00:50:11,000
mind of the director

1299
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:13,020
there's a there's an audience comment

1300
00:50:16,970 --> 00:50:15,119
hear from Derek here I think people

1301
00:50:18,770 --> 00:50:16,980
correlate water with life so it Sparks

1302
00:50:20,690 --> 00:50:18,780
the imagination right I think actually

1303
00:50:22,190 --> 00:50:20,700
that's a really compelling idea or

1304
00:50:24,109 --> 00:50:22,200
thought right

1305
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:24,119
um because we do associate water as

1306
00:50:28,849 --> 00:50:25,920
being I mean it is an essential part of

1307
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:28,859
life so to make that connection uh make

1308
00:50:34,550 --> 00:50:31,440
sense to me and uh

1309
00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:34,560
um I'll just one last thing just uh it's

1310
00:50:39,470 --> 00:50:36,480
an interesting thing as well to note

1311
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:39,480
that when uh like at the max blank

1312
00:50:43,609 --> 00:50:41,520
Institute for plasma physics in 2006

1313
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:43,619
when they were successfully replicating

1314
00:50:49,010 --> 00:50:46,079
old Soviet science claims of being able

1315
00:50:51,470 --> 00:50:49,020
to create uh semi

1316
00:50:54,349 --> 00:50:51,480
um you know it's a coherence plasmoids

1317
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,359
in the lab they used

1318
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:56,760
um an electric uh very high energy

1319
00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:00,960
electric discharge in a vat of water and

1320
00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:03,420
it is uh very intense

1321
00:51:08,450 --> 00:51:06,119
burst of electricity being applied to a

1322
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:08,460
water body and you know there's dozens

1323
00:51:11,690 --> 00:51:10,319
of these videos online of the scientists

1324
00:51:15,950 --> 00:51:11,700
doing this and then out of the water

1325
00:51:17,329 --> 00:51:15,960
emerges a plasmoid that is often like I

1326
00:51:18,890 --> 00:51:17,339
mean has many of the features that we're

1327
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:18,900
talking about so quite interesting that

1328
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:21,420
it's like a high energy burst plus water

1329
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:24,000
does produce plasmoids in the lab it's

1330
00:51:27,410 --> 00:51:25,200
definitely something to keep your mind

1331
00:51:28,970 --> 00:51:27,420
on when going through this yeah that's

1332
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:28,980
something to think about I I saw a

1333
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:30,240
question here Nick do you know if the

1334
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:32,520
campsite has any sort of record

1335
00:51:35,809 --> 00:51:33,359
um

1336
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:35,819
one I don't know if those Witnesses were

1337
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:37,980
in a legitimate campsite or if they were

1338
00:51:43,010 --> 00:51:40,380
just sleeping on the beach

1339
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:43,020
um in Winter right in winter in Michigan

1340
00:51:50,569 --> 00:51:46,079
in Michigan on the lake shore

1341
00:51:52,250 --> 00:51:50,579
I will I will positively ball me I will

1342
00:51:53,930 --> 00:51:52,260
do the due diligence and actually look

1343
00:51:55,010 --> 00:51:53,940
into that I've already um been in

1344
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:55,020
contact with a lot of the local

1345
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:57,900
libraries up and down the shore about

1346
00:52:02,089 --> 00:52:00,420
um previous hot air balloon companies

1347
00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:02,099
that may have explained some of the on

1348
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:03,720
the ground sightings they couldn't find

1349
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:06,480
any there was none operating there um I

1350
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,880
have to check out in you know further

1351
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:10,319
sweeps and I'm going to add this to the

1352
00:52:14,329 --> 00:52:11,760
list because this case I'm still not

1353
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,339
done with of course but um because it's

1354
00:52:17,569 --> 00:52:15,599
not solved yet

1355
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:17,579
but uh that's that's a good point and

1356
00:52:21,650 --> 00:52:18,960
I'm gonna put a pin in that and check

1357
00:52:23,089 --> 00:52:21,660
that out that's a good idea um I you

1358
00:52:24,829 --> 00:52:23,099
know I'd really love to actually get in

1359
00:52:27,650 --> 00:52:24,839
touch with Jenny Tilly uh the

1360
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:27,660
investigator I I had hoped when we went

1361
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:29,400
to do the filming for this episode of

1362
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:30,839
Unsolved Mysteries that I'd be able to

1363
00:52:34,370 --> 00:52:32,640
connect with her

1364
00:52:36,049 --> 00:52:34,380
um and Troy Prince two people I haven't

1365
00:52:37,370 --> 00:52:36,059
been able to actually get a hold of one

1366
00:52:39,710 --> 00:52:37,380
when reaching out to the all the

1367
00:52:42,349 --> 00:52:39,720
original Witnesses in my investigation

1368
00:52:45,170 --> 00:52:42,359
um they kept us all separate so I didn't

1369
00:52:47,630 --> 00:52:45,180
have the opportunity I know that the

1370
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:47,640
show got through her uh got through to

1371
00:52:50,809 --> 00:52:49,680
her through um I think a nephew or

1372
00:52:52,730 --> 00:52:50,819
something I didn't feel comfortable

1373
00:52:54,410 --> 00:52:52,740
doing that

1374
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:54,420
um so hopefully our paths cross in the

1375
00:52:56,930 --> 00:52:55,500
future

1376
00:53:00,530 --> 00:52:56,940
um so we can talk about it she actually

1377
00:53:02,569 --> 00:53:00,540
plays uh another part of the story later

1378
00:53:03,890 --> 00:53:02,579
so we've we've the the sightings

1379
00:53:05,150 --> 00:53:03,900
concluded

1380
00:53:06,589 --> 00:53:05,160
um we've had the on the ground Witnesses

1381
00:53:07,790 --> 00:53:06,599
we've had Jack watching them on the

1382
00:53:09,650 --> 00:53:07,800
weather radar

1383
00:53:11,150 --> 00:53:09,660
um a lot of explanations for that

1384
00:53:13,549 --> 00:53:11,160
weather radar comes up

1385
00:53:14,809 --> 00:53:13,559
um ground clutter is one of them though

1386
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:14,819
he can

1387
00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:19,200
cluttered due to the jumping elevations

1388
00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,180
of these objects he would raise the beam

1389
00:53:26,089 --> 00:53:23,819
up at a high angle off the ground ground

1390
00:53:27,829 --> 00:53:26,099
clutter would come from the beam kind of

1391
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:27,839
clipping the tops of buildings and trees

1392
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:31,260
stuff like that showing an object there

1393
00:53:34,609 --> 00:53:33,359
um let alone their motion

1394
00:53:37,069 --> 00:53:34,619
um temperature inversions are another

1395
00:53:39,170 --> 00:53:37,079
suggestion I think that um

1396
00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:39,180
I think it was uh Robert Shaffer and

1397
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:41,640
even Phil class at one point threw that

1398
00:53:46,069 --> 00:53:43,200
out there for this case and while that

1399
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:46,079
doesn't necessarily explain the on the

1400
00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:48,000
ground eyewitness accounts

1401
00:53:51,530 --> 00:53:49,319
um I know that temperature inversions

1402
00:53:54,410 --> 00:53:51,540
were responsible or at least claimed to

1403
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:54,420
be responsible for the uh the 1952

1404
00:53:59,210 --> 00:53:57,119
Washington DC UFO settings that were

1405
00:54:01,490 --> 00:53:59,220
also picked up on radar

1406
00:54:03,530 --> 00:54:01,500
um and it is something that would give a

1407
00:54:05,329 --> 00:54:03,540
radar return so it's another thing to

1408
00:54:08,329 --> 00:54:05,339
keep your mind on when we're going

1409
00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:08,339
through this case now as we mentioned

1410
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:11,640
mufon was first on the scene as they

1411
00:54:16,130 --> 00:54:13,680
usually are they're the closest thing to

1412
00:54:18,650 --> 00:54:16,140
a household name for a UFO investigation

1413
00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:18,660
so of course Michigan mufon was on the

1414
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:20,760
case now

1415
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:23,040
um coming from the perspective of

1416
00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:24,720
Michael swords another investigator out

1417
00:54:31,250 --> 00:54:27,900
of jail and heineck's kufos in Illinois

1418
00:54:33,049 --> 00:54:31,260
um there was a reputation after uh after

1419
00:54:35,329 --> 00:54:33,059
mufan had come and gone that the kind of

1420
00:54:37,370 --> 00:54:35,339
uh harassed a lot of the witnesses and

1421
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,380
put a sour taste in their mouth

1422
00:54:42,530 --> 00:54:39,599
I don't know the accuracy of that um it

1423
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,540
seems to be the case but

1424
00:54:45,530 --> 00:54:44,160
not only did they mention uh they

1425
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:45,540
interview all these witnesses that we

1426
00:54:49,370 --> 00:54:48,540
went through they also collected a lot

1427
00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:49,380
of

1428
00:54:53,630 --> 00:54:51,720
actually I believe it was um I have it

1429
00:54:54,530 --> 00:54:53,640
in it they mentioned in their Journal at

1430
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:54,540
the time

1431
00:55:00,170 --> 00:54:58,079
that there were um sorry this one

1432
00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:00,180
10 videotapes and a dozen photographs

1433
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:02,280
collected from this

1434
00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:05,280
sighting now this was uh in a UFO

1435
00:55:10,089 --> 00:55:07,380
Journal um this was the Michigan radar

1436
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:10,099
case part one part two never came out

1437
00:55:17,630 --> 00:55:15,119
and uh suspicious yeah those photos or

1438
00:55:20,210 --> 00:55:17,640
videos were ever released now the the

1439
00:55:23,390 --> 00:55:20,220
article makes a specific mention twice

1440
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,400
of a woman uh who lived near Decatur uh

1441
00:55:26,690 --> 00:55:24,960
she lived in a town called Marcellus

1442
00:55:30,109 --> 00:55:26,700
which is right by there but the

1443
00:55:32,930 --> 00:55:30,119
significance of that is Decatur is very

1444
00:55:34,609 --> 00:55:32,940
close to one of the radar returns that

1445
00:55:37,130 --> 00:55:34,619
Jack mentions and

1446
00:55:38,510 --> 00:55:37,140
um corroborated by the 911 tape where

1447
00:55:40,370 --> 00:55:38,520
he's calling off where he's picking up

1448
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:40,380
these sightings one of them was over

1449
00:55:45,950 --> 00:55:43,200
Decatur it was kind of the uh the

1450
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:45,960
easternmost object that he was tracking

1451
00:55:51,290 --> 00:55:48,000
uh hovered around there

1452
00:55:52,990 --> 00:55:51,300
this says around 9 30 I think that that

1453
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:53,000
was probably an estimate after the fact

1454
00:55:57,770 --> 00:55:56,400
however I think that if if any of those

1455
00:56:01,069 --> 00:55:57,780
videos particularly this woman from

1456
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:01,079
Marcellus this video had any kind of um

1457
00:56:06,829 --> 00:56:04,079
landmarks or anything or even a time

1458
00:56:08,450 --> 00:56:06,839
um we could probably close that Gap at

1459
00:56:09,710 --> 00:56:08,460
least a little bit uh between the

1460
00:56:12,170 --> 00:56:09,720
eyewitness sightings and the radar

1461
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:12,180
sightings you know what I mean but like

1462
00:56:16,190 --> 00:56:14,160
I said these have never been released I

1463
00:56:17,450 --> 00:56:16,200
have reached out to the current chair of

1464
00:56:20,089 --> 00:56:17,460
Michigan mufon his name is Bill

1465
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:20,099
concoleski uh he essentially ghosted me

1466
00:56:23,690 --> 00:56:21,599
and said that mufan likes to present

1467
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:23,700
their own information on their own time

1468
00:56:29,569 --> 00:56:27,359
um 30 years later come on dude yeah and

1469
00:56:31,010 --> 00:56:29,579
see uh I when I found out I got cut from

1470
00:56:33,049 --> 00:56:31,020
this episode I was like well I think

1471
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:33,059
concoleski is going to be in it and this

1472
00:56:37,250 --> 00:56:35,040
is a real opportunity for mufon to

1473
00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:37,260
present their evidence as they like

1474
00:56:40,609 --> 00:56:39,599
right what better possible platform

1475
00:56:43,370 --> 00:56:40,619
right because they're already

1476
00:56:46,849 --> 00:56:43,380
introducing new narratives right here's

1477
00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:46,859
mufon's chance right and I I noticed I

1478
00:56:49,730 --> 00:56:48,180
watched the episode the day it came out

1479
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:49,740
and I noticed there was a it was

1480
00:56:52,730 --> 00:56:51,420
essentially a commercial for mufon right

1481
00:56:54,410 --> 00:56:52,740
in the middle of it flashed their logo

1482
00:56:57,049 --> 00:56:54,420
up talked about how much evidence they

1483
00:56:59,210 --> 00:56:57,059
collect how many members they have

1484
00:57:01,130 --> 00:56:59,220
and then they kind of failed to mention

1485
00:57:02,750 --> 00:57:01,140
what they do with that evidence or why

1486
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:02,760
they're collecting it

1487
00:57:06,890 --> 00:57:05,400
um which I still did they fail to

1488
00:57:08,450 --> 00:57:06,900
mention it or is there nothing to

1489
00:57:09,890 --> 00:57:08,460
mention and maybe there's nothing to

1490
00:57:12,049 --> 00:57:09,900
mention I mean they sell books maybe

1491
00:57:14,690 --> 00:57:12,059
there's shadowy forces behind the scenes

1492
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:14,700
pulling the strings I mean we'll do make

1493
00:57:18,730 --> 00:57:17,280
that claim right of course they do but

1494
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:18,740
it's UFOs

1495
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:21,359
but uh the fact does remain that these

1496
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:23,520
uh none of these photos or videos have

1497
00:57:27,890 --> 00:57:26,400
been released um I say why not I've been

1498
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:27,900
told that they're not much of anything

1499
00:57:31,370 --> 00:57:29,640
you know lights in the sky but even if

1500
00:57:33,950 --> 00:57:31,380
there's any kind of identifying Landmark

1501
00:57:35,930 --> 00:57:33,960
they could be useful like let me

1502
00:57:37,790 --> 00:57:35,940
determine that let me determine if

1503
00:57:40,190 --> 00:57:37,800
you're useful or not let's see them even

1504
00:57:41,870 --> 00:57:40,200
if they're nothing right and it's

1505
00:57:43,549 --> 00:57:41,880
already you it's already UFOs that we're

1506
00:57:46,730 --> 00:57:43,559
talking about so like standards of

1507
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:46,740
evidence and like epistemology here are

1508
00:57:51,950 --> 00:57:49,920
inconsequential I agree everything gets

1509
00:57:53,290 --> 00:57:51,960
decided in the court of public ufology

1510
00:57:56,030 --> 00:57:53,300
opinion

1511
00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:56,040
so yeah I'm not exactly sure I know

1512
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,420
other people have reached out to him him

1513
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:59,280
to try he says oh yeah let me dig those

1514
00:58:02,690 --> 00:58:00,720
up and then just kind of ghosts those

1515
00:58:05,630 --> 00:58:02,700
people too

1516
00:58:08,510 --> 00:58:05,640
um despite you know him coming on this

1517
00:58:11,390 --> 00:58:08,520
show as of last year I mean we filmed

1518
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,400
last year promoting the show I mean um

1519
00:58:14,510 --> 00:58:13,200
he he agrees I mean these are the words

1520
00:58:16,430 --> 00:58:14,520
of Michael's swords but this is one of

1521
00:58:20,089 --> 00:58:16,440
the better observed cases

1522
00:58:22,130 --> 00:58:20,099
of modern times I mean we've got uh not

1523
00:58:23,690 --> 00:58:22,140
only do we have I uh independent

1524
00:58:25,069 --> 00:58:23,700
eyewitnesses that corroborate what

1525
00:58:26,690 --> 00:58:25,079
they're seeing but we have their

1526
00:58:28,970 --> 00:58:26,700
recordings of their statements in real

1527
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,980
time so they haven't had the opportunity

1528
00:58:34,370 --> 00:58:31,920
to evolve in any way or be exaggerated

1529
00:58:37,309 --> 00:58:34,380
just by simple recall you can exaggerate

1530
00:58:39,710 --> 00:58:37,319
memories like this in fact if you notice

1531
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:39,720
um in this episode that they presented

1532
00:58:43,370 --> 00:58:42,000
it's quite a bit more dramatic what

1533
00:58:45,069 --> 00:58:43,380
they're seeing than a string of

1534
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,079
Christmas lights in this guy

1535
00:58:49,069 --> 00:58:47,520
but you know these things these things

1536
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:49,079
happen this way I appreciate that 9-1-1

1537
00:58:54,289 --> 00:58:51,599
call none of the actual UFO

1538
00:58:56,750 --> 00:58:54,299
investigators on the scene be that mufon

1539
00:58:59,650 --> 00:58:56,760
nycap or kufos actually fought to get

1540
00:59:01,970 --> 00:58:59,660
that released it was a uh it was a local

1541
00:59:04,190 --> 00:59:01,980
writer from Muskegon Chronicle named

1542
00:59:05,809 --> 00:59:04,200
Mike Walsh he just went to the he he

1543
00:59:07,069 --> 00:59:05,819
called the police station said like hey

1544
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:07,079
could I have a tape of that and they

1545
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,880
just sent it right over I think that's

1546
00:59:12,410 --> 00:59:10,559
like one of the the best pieces of

1547
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:12,420
evidence in this case so it makes it so

1548
00:59:16,970 --> 00:59:14,400
compelling is you can kind of um

1549
00:59:17,870 --> 00:59:16,980
you can cut uh sorry I'm getting ahead

1550
00:59:19,789 --> 00:59:17,880
of myself

1551
00:59:21,710 --> 00:59:19,799
um in that investigation Michael swords

1552
00:59:24,289 --> 00:59:21,720
from kufos came and met with Jack and

1553
00:59:26,750 --> 00:59:24,299
they made they took radar blanks and

1554
00:59:28,430 --> 00:59:26,760
redrew what he was seeing on the Scopes

1555
00:59:30,589 --> 00:59:28,440
because it was kind of an older machine

1556
00:59:32,809 --> 00:59:30,599
this was 1994 mind you but the machine

1557
00:59:34,670 --> 00:59:32,819
was a bit older than that and it didn't

1558
00:59:37,069 --> 00:59:34,680
create like a computer record so they

1559
00:59:38,870 --> 00:59:37,079
had to redo it after the fact but

1560
00:59:40,789 --> 00:59:38,880
luckily because of that tape we can kind

1561
00:59:42,289 --> 00:59:40,799
of corroborate what he's saying in real

1562
00:59:44,270 --> 00:59:42,299
time and match it up with some of his

1563
00:59:45,710 --> 00:59:44,280
drawings I noticed that I think number

1564
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,720
four and number five are out of order

1565
00:59:49,190 --> 00:59:47,280
because I think they're number they're

1566
00:59:51,109 --> 00:59:49,200
numbered for like 1 through 12 and he

1567
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:51,119
does like a series of them some of them

1568
00:59:54,650 --> 00:59:53,040
are a little out of order but uh they do

1569
00:59:56,809 --> 00:59:54,660
match up with what he's saying on the

1570
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:56,819
tape so it's the next best thing I

1571
00:59:59,690 --> 00:59:57,839
suppose

1572
01:00:01,370 --> 00:59:59,700
um and they they look like this

1573
01:00:02,569 --> 01:00:01,380
essentially I showed you an earlier one

1574
01:00:04,730 --> 01:00:02,579
too

1575
01:00:07,069 --> 01:00:04,740
were you able to say something yeah I

1576
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:07,079
was going to say just in a high level

1577
01:00:09,770 --> 01:00:07,680
um

1578
01:00:12,370 --> 01:00:09,780
what makes this such an interesting case

1579
01:00:14,809 --> 01:00:12,380
to me is it has that cross system

1580
01:00:16,849 --> 01:00:14,819
corroboration right where you have

1581
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:16,859
multiple systems that are generally

1582
01:00:20,030 --> 01:00:18,960
telling the same story right yeah it

1583
01:00:22,130 --> 01:00:20,040
doesn't mean they have conclusions about

1584
01:00:24,109 --> 01:00:22,140
what they're witnessing but I think the

1585
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:24,119
most compelling cases are the ones where

1586
01:00:29,210 --> 01:00:27,359
you have both instrumentation that's

1587
01:00:31,010 --> 01:00:29,220
demonstrating some things going on in

1588
01:00:34,069 --> 01:00:31,020
addition to compelling witness testimony

1589
01:00:36,109 --> 01:00:34,079
in addition to some kind of on-the-spot

1590
01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:36,119
day Zero kind of documentation

1591
01:00:40,430 --> 01:00:38,220
associated with what the witnesses saw

1592
01:00:42,049 --> 01:00:40,440
right like right I'm with you where it

1593
01:00:44,750 --> 01:00:42,059
seems like this is like one of the

1594
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:44,760
strongest cases full stop it's certainly

1595
01:00:49,069 --> 01:00:46,319
stronger than a lot of the kind of

1596
01:00:51,410 --> 01:00:49,079
popularly conceived of strong cases that

1597
01:00:52,730 --> 01:00:51,420
we see discussed in the community yeah I

1598
01:00:53,870 --> 01:00:52,740
agree and like I said at the beginning

1599
01:00:55,730 --> 01:00:53,880
of this

1600
01:00:58,010 --> 01:00:55,740
um nothing about any of these sightings

1601
01:01:01,609 --> 01:00:58,020
even insinuates in any way that it's

1602
01:01:04,430 --> 01:01:01,619
extraterrestrial or um even a craft of

1603
01:01:07,309 --> 01:01:04,440
any kind this is just kind of a an

1604
01:01:09,230 --> 01:01:07,319
aerial anomaly right but I feel I feel

1605
01:01:11,390 --> 01:01:09,240
convinced that at least the on the

1606
01:01:13,849 --> 01:01:11,400
ground people were looking at something

1607
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:13,859
out of the ordinary

1608
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:15,119
um a group of lights that comes together

1609
01:01:20,690 --> 01:01:18,240
and kind of encircles itself and moves

1610
01:01:22,910 --> 01:01:20,700
apart like that's pretty odd

1611
01:01:25,010 --> 01:01:22,920
um while it could have been orchestrated

1612
01:01:26,750 --> 01:01:25,020
as a hoax in some way that that's a

1613
01:01:28,609 --> 01:01:26,760
possibility

1614
01:01:30,410 --> 01:01:28,619
um but that in and of itself is kind of

1615
01:01:32,690 --> 01:01:30,420
out of the ordinary right you know yeah

1616
01:01:34,370 --> 01:01:32,700
and plus like after 30 odd years you

1617
01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:34,380
would generally

1618
01:01:37,549 --> 01:01:36,059
it feels like like that's not that

1619
01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:37,559
hasn't even

1620
01:01:41,089 --> 01:01:39,180
look I'm not I'm not the kind of case

1621
01:01:43,210 --> 01:01:41,099
expert you are but like the notion of it

1622
01:01:45,890 --> 01:01:43,220
being a hoax hasn't even kind of entered

1623
01:01:49,010 --> 01:01:45,900
any kind of dialogue around this case

1624
01:01:51,589 --> 01:01:49,020
not really I mean the closest one was uh

1625
01:01:53,329 --> 01:01:51,599
Holly's then husband Daryl on these the

1626
01:01:55,309 --> 01:01:53,339
the I think the third voice in the 911

1627
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:55,319
call saying that they might be Balloons

1628
01:01:59,210 --> 01:01:57,839
with lights attached to them and he said

1629
01:02:01,430 --> 01:01:59,220
that just because

1630
01:02:03,950 --> 01:02:01,440
from what he saw he didn't see them come

1631
01:02:05,690 --> 01:02:03,960
together and form he only saw them in a

1632
01:02:07,730 --> 01:02:05,700
formation and then break apart and it

1633
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:07,740
was kind of based on that

1634
01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:09,599
um oh and also it's verbal conjecture

1635
01:02:13,250 --> 01:02:11,160
while you're witnessing something that's

1636
01:02:14,930 --> 01:02:13,260
defying explanation like of course you

1637
01:02:17,690 --> 01:02:14,940
would say things like that because right

1638
01:02:19,910 --> 01:02:17,700
yeah verbally reasoning is uh observing

1639
01:02:21,289 --> 01:02:19,920
he he I don't know that he was even

1640
01:02:22,670 --> 01:02:21,299
convinced himself of that because you

1641
01:02:24,770 --> 01:02:22,680
can hear him chuckling about it and he

1642
01:02:26,089 --> 01:02:24,780
says they're out there man like and he

1643
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,099
he seemed to be really excited that

1644
01:02:29,630 --> 01:02:28,079
other people were seeing and calling

1645
01:02:31,789 --> 01:02:29,640
them too

1646
01:02:34,670 --> 01:02:31,799
um uh it was I I was just thinking about

1647
01:02:37,309 --> 01:02:34,680
how like Louise I mentioned uh Jamesy

1648
01:02:38,930 --> 01:02:37,319
oberg the NASA scientist a former NASA I

1649
01:02:41,450 --> 01:02:38,940
guess yeah maybe still does contract

1650
01:02:43,549 --> 01:02:41,460
work but anyway he's a major uh skeptic

1651
01:02:46,670 --> 01:02:43,559
debunker of UFO stuff

1652
01:02:49,730 --> 01:02:46,680
um and it made me think it's like his uh

1653
01:02:51,650 --> 01:02:49,740
case doing the fireball

1654
01:02:54,049 --> 01:02:51,660
um satellite re-entry over Hawaii a few

1655
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:54,059
years ago convinced me personally that

1656
01:02:59,150 --> 01:02:57,599
people can report something that uh like

1657
01:03:02,329 --> 01:02:59,160
huge numbers something that's seen Sam

1658
01:03:04,130 --> 01:03:02,339
sounds impossible to explain any normal

1659
01:03:05,690 --> 01:03:04,140
way and then it turns out that it can be

1660
01:03:08,210 --> 01:03:05,700
explained because that would event it

1661
01:03:09,530 --> 01:03:08,220
was a satellite re-entry but and I've

1662
01:03:10,670 --> 01:03:09,540
never seen one like this to like looked

1663
01:03:12,589 --> 01:03:10,680
up these videos I wouldn't have known

1664
01:03:15,170 --> 01:03:12,599
what it was if I saw it a few years ago

1665
01:03:17,690 --> 01:03:15,180
but it's like the satellite comes in and

1666
01:03:20,809 --> 01:03:17,700
it breaks up but then all the pieces are

1667
01:03:22,849 --> 01:03:20,819
traveling at the same speed right so it

1668
01:03:25,490 --> 01:03:22,859
looks and so then hundreds of people saw

1669
01:03:28,430 --> 01:03:25,500
this and then like half of them said

1670
01:03:31,370 --> 01:03:28,440
that they saw a structured craft because

1671
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:31,380
your brain fills in the blanks with the

1672
01:03:35,630 --> 01:03:33,359
lights moving together at the same speed

1673
01:03:37,069 --> 01:03:35,640
so it is interesting to think it's like

1674
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,079
if a bunch of people saw something like

1675
01:03:41,150 --> 01:03:39,119
that like that's a brief event though

1676
01:03:42,530 --> 01:03:41,160
that's like maybe 15 seconds across the

1677
01:03:44,210 --> 01:03:42,540
sky they're also strange because they

1678
01:03:46,010 --> 01:03:44,220
travel very slowly compared to what you

1679
01:03:47,569 --> 01:03:46,020
would expect from a shooting star so you

1680
01:03:50,210 --> 01:03:47,579
know it makes sense people would sort of

1681
01:03:53,450 --> 01:03:50,220
characterize them strangely but it would

1682
01:03:55,609 --> 01:03:53,460
it would almost require like multiple uh

1683
01:03:57,589 --> 01:03:55,619
fire like re-entries or something over

1684
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:57,599
this period of time so it is intriguing

1685
01:04:02,809 --> 01:03:59,359
that there's no like

1686
01:04:04,130 --> 01:04:02,819
coherent uh like like sufficient

1687
01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:04,140
plausible sort of it's not like a

1688
01:04:07,309 --> 01:04:05,640
one-off observation of a light that

1689
01:04:09,650 --> 01:04:07,319
maybe is moving around stuff like it's

1690
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:09,660
like multiple people you hear the tapes

1691
01:04:13,190 --> 01:04:11,760
from the police at the same time a bunch

1692
01:04:14,329 --> 01:04:13,200
of people from different places saying

1693
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:14,339
like this line of light it's

1694
01:04:19,069 --> 01:04:16,200
multi-colored coming together circling

1695
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:19,079
around dissipating very strange I agree

1696
01:04:22,970 --> 01:04:21,119
very interesting I mean I I think that

1697
01:04:24,890 --> 01:04:22,980
um the the satellite re-entry is even

1698
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,900
similar to The Hudson Valley case which

1699
01:04:29,450 --> 01:04:26,640
I talk about all the time that it's like

1700
01:04:31,370 --> 01:04:29,460
nearly conclusively a group I mean

1701
01:04:32,990 --> 01:04:31,380
conclusively as far as I'm concerned a

1702
01:04:35,089 --> 01:04:33,000
group of small planes a group of

1703
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:35,099
sessimists flying despite all these

1704
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:36,240
people's

1705
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,640
um extraordinary experiences they had

1706
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:40,799
with it in fact uh even one person

1707
01:04:44,569 --> 01:04:42,960
experienced it hovering over water and

1708
01:04:47,630 --> 01:04:44,579
sending probes down

1709
01:04:49,370 --> 01:04:47,640
right well which I mean a group of

1710
01:04:51,470 --> 01:04:49,380
planes was not doing that so it's

1711
01:04:53,569 --> 01:04:51,480
interesting it's interesting but yeah I

1712
01:04:55,010 --> 01:04:53,579
think the just the fact that these

1713
01:04:57,829 --> 01:04:55,020
people were spread out independent

1714
01:04:59,930 --> 01:04:57,839
didn't know each other we're all very

1715
01:05:01,490 --> 01:04:59,940
closely describing the same thing

1716
01:05:04,370 --> 01:05:01,500
um even down to

1717
01:05:07,130 --> 01:05:04,380
when it stopped in position Daryl Graves

1718
01:05:09,170 --> 01:05:07,140
uh before officer velthouse showed up

1719
01:05:11,210 --> 01:05:09,180
was looking at his binoculars he said

1720
01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:11,220
they stopped and then that woman and her

1721
01:05:14,809 --> 01:05:13,260
son two miles south also made that same

1722
01:05:16,849 --> 01:05:14,819
claim that they hovered in position

1723
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:16,859
after they broke up for a minute in one

1724
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:19,440
place and then began to move again

1725
01:05:24,170 --> 01:05:21,599
it's it's odd it's compelling that it's

1726
01:05:27,289 --> 01:05:24,180
something possibly strange because as

1727
01:05:30,770 --> 01:05:27,299
far as I'm willing to take that but I am

1728
01:05:34,970 --> 01:05:32,990
this report right was anyone freaking

1729
01:05:37,010 --> 01:05:34,980
out was it traumatic

1730
01:05:39,890 --> 01:05:37,020
um I think the the other question I have

1731
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:39,900
is what kind of conclusions do you hear

1732
01:05:44,870 --> 01:05:43,440
people draw does anybody say I mean I

1733
01:05:47,089 --> 01:05:44,880
assume people with a kind of just

1734
01:05:49,130 --> 01:05:47,099
colloquially use the term UFO because

1735
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:49,140
that's like the you know waste basket

1736
01:05:52,910 --> 01:05:50,880
term for like anything you're gonna see

1737
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:52,920
that you don't know what it is but does

1738
01:05:58,670 --> 01:05:56,400
anyone go like you know uh it's aliens

1739
01:06:02,089 --> 01:05:58,680
it's a spaceship it's a flying saucer

1740
01:06:04,190 --> 01:06:02,099
it's whatever or is it just kind of

1741
01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:04,200
descriptive terminology around like oh

1742
01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:06,000
it looks like Christmas lights and or

1743
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:08,460
it's a UFO does anybody like vocalize

1744
01:06:12,049 --> 01:06:10,260
any kind of conclusions or speculation

1745
01:06:13,609 --> 01:06:12,059
yes

1746
01:06:16,490 --> 01:06:13,619
um Holly

1747
01:06:18,230 --> 01:06:16,500
isn't sure uh from when I from when I

1748
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:18,240
talk to her I mean she thinks that she

1749
01:06:21,650 --> 01:06:19,920
thinks it's probably some type of flying

1750
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:21,660
saucer but she doesn't know

1751
01:06:26,569 --> 01:06:23,280
um Jack feels a little more strongly

1752
01:06:27,710 --> 01:06:26,579
about that uh at least judging by when

1753
01:06:31,609 --> 01:06:27,720
I've

1754
01:06:33,410 --> 01:06:31,619
um spoken with him he sees this as uh he

1755
01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:33,420
or he interprets it as possibly them

1756
01:06:37,069 --> 01:06:35,520
communicating with him whatever this was

1757
01:06:39,289 --> 01:06:37,079
I mean he hasn't specifically said like

1758
01:06:40,609 --> 01:06:39,299
aliens from Zeta reticuli but he says

1759
01:06:42,170 --> 01:06:40,619
like

1760
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:42,180
um in the tape one of the one of the

1761
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:43,680
highlights of the tape and his portion

1762
01:06:47,390 --> 01:06:45,119
of the tape is when he says oh my God

1763
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:47,400
when he screams oh my God it's shortly

1764
01:06:51,650 --> 01:06:49,440
after he was picking up a couple returns

1765
01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:51,660
he said when they formed up he thought

1766
01:06:55,789 --> 01:06:53,520
that they were forming an arrow pointing

1767
01:06:59,150 --> 01:06:55,799
directly at his weather station at first

1768
01:07:00,190 --> 01:06:59,160
at first but then when he says he he

1769
01:07:02,809 --> 01:07:00,200
felt

1770
01:07:04,490 --> 01:07:02,819
that they were aware of

1771
01:07:07,069 --> 01:07:04,500
him watching them and how they were

1772
01:07:08,930 --> 01:07:07,079
watching him he sees this as a form of

1773
01:07:10,609 --> 01:07:08,940
communication maybe as

1774
01:07:12,529 --> 01:07:10,619
a semiotic communication kind of like

1775
01:07:14,210 --> 01:07:12,539
valet says

1776
01:07:17,569 --> 01:07:14,220
um so he's I mean he feels pretty

1777
01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:17,579
convinced that it's E.T I mean he uh he

1778
01:07:21,049 --> 01:07:19,260
had as he describes kind of a connection

1779
01:07:28,370 --> 01:07:21,059
with this sighting that's quite

1780
01:07:32,329 --> 01:07:30,049
difference between Consciousness and

1781
01:07:34,970 --> 01:07:32,339
self-organizing systems right like we

1782
01:07:36,770 --> 01:07:34,980
see uh like Conway's Game of Life will

1783
01:07:38,450 --> 01:07:36,780
show you that system is self-organized

1784
01:07:39,890 --> 01:07:38,460
just algorithmically it has nothing to

1785
01:07:42,829 --> 01:07:39,900
do with whether there's actual thinking

1786
01:07:44,029 --> 01:07:42,839
or Minds behind it and um these are

1787
01:07:46,430 --> 01:07:44,039
behaviors

1788
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:46,440
um patterns of behavior that you see

1789
01:07:51,770 --> 01:07:48,480
exhibited in all different kind of

1790
01:07:54,109 --> 01:07:51,780
states and materials whether it's the

1791
01:07:57,349 --> 01:07:54,119
way human self-organizing communities or

1792
01:07:58,549 --> 01:07:57,359
the way insects self-organize uh it's

1793
01:08:01,970 --> 01:07:58,559
it's basically just all part of

1794
01:08:04,609 --> 01:08:01,980
complexity signs yeah and when we talk

1795
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:04,619
about uh the

1796
01:08:11,150 --> 01:08:08,220
inclination to attribute

1797
01:08:13,970 --> 01:08:11,160
um deliberate Behavior or communication

1798
01:08:16,490 --> 01:08:13,980
to these events

1799
01:08:19,789 --> 01:08:16,500
um it can very well be that you're

1800
01:08:21,470 --> 01:08:19,799
witnessing a system undergoing some

1801
01:08:23,809 --> 01:08:21,480
degree of self-organization and

1802
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,819
reorganization without they're actually

1803
01:08:28,249 --> 01:08:25,920
being meaningful intelligence behind it

1804
01:08:30,590 --> 01:08:28,259
right right how do you distinguish uh

1805
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:30,600
true intelligence from what you're

1806
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:33,120
projecting onto something exactly yeah

1807
01:08:37,490 --> 01:08:35,699
and and like and you know you hear these

1808
01:08:38,809 --> 01:08:37,500
descriptions frequently when people talk

1809
01:08:41,990 --> 01:08:38,819
about what they've witnessed that oh

1810
01:08:43,970 --> 01:08:42,000
it's like it reminds them of like a b or

1811
01:08:46,249 --> 01:08:43,980
an insect's flight path or how they move

1812
01:08:49,370 --> 01:08:46,259
around right um

1813
01:08:51,769 --> 01:08:49,380
but my point it just is that things can

1814
01:08:55,070 --> 01:08:51,779
appear to like in in a very general

1815
01:08:57,590 --> 01:08:55,080
sense the same way a basic AI is

1816
01:08:59,630 --> 01:08:57,600
intelligent like you could say okay like

1817
01:09:03,249 --> 01:08:59,640
this behavior of self-organization is

1818
01:09:07,249 --> 01:09:03,259
also intelligent but that doesn't confer

1819
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:07,259
Consciousness or general intelligence to

1820
01:09:10,490 --> 01:09:08,640
what you're witnessing it just means

1821
01:09:14,809 --> 01:09:10,500
that there's some sort of mechanistic

1822
01:09:16,970 --> 01:09:14,819
property to what uh the phenomena like

1823
01:09:19,970 --> 01:09:16,980
what the phenomenology of this event is

1824
01:09:21,650 --> 01:09:19,980
right that's why I I draw no conclusions

1825
01:09:23,689 --> 01:09:21,660
from this other than

1826
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:23,699
um it's still a mystery it's something

1827
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:26,640
to identify still and it's it's a really

1828
01:09:31,490 --> 01:09:28,319
interesting one because it doesn't seem

1829
01:09:33,950 --> 01:09:31,500
to fit into the the typical categories

1830
01:09:34,910 --> 01:09:33,960
um that was a really uh good point there

1831
01:09:37,189 --> 01:09:34,920
I think

1832
01:09:38,450 --> 01:09:37,199
um I just shared a video in our private

1833
01:09:39,890 --> 01:09:38,460
uh chat I don't know if you can play

1834
01:09:41,930 --> 01:09:39,900
that Leia just because I'm on my laptop

1835
01:09:44,570 --> 01:09:41,940
it'll uh freeze up when I tried the

1836
01:09:46,910 --> 01:09:44,580
screen share before but it shows a uh an

1837
01:09:49,309 --> 01:09:46,920
experiment on in

1838
01:09:51,970 --> 01:09:49,319
um a California University I can't

1839
01:09:54,130 --> 01:09:51,980
remember which one very high energy

1840
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:54,140
microwave essentially

1841
01:09:59,870 --> 01:09:57,360
electromagnetic field applied to charged

1842
01:10:01,550 --> 01:09:59,880
flakes of carbon so they're behaving

1843
01:10:05,209 --> 01:10:01,560
like you would expect

1844
01:10:06,890 --> 01:10:05,219
you know plasmoids to behave and uh I I

1845
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:06,900
would just I don't know if we can play

1846
01:10:11,930 --> 01:10:09,440
it but um

1847
01:10:13,610 --> 01:10:11,940
let me try we're gonna

1848
01:10:15,950 --> 01:10:13,620
I think based on what you were just

1849
01:10:17,450 --> 01:10:15,960
talking about it's going to be uh it's

1850
01:10:19,430 --> 01:10:17,460
good it's one of these videos that I've

1851
01:10:21,530 --> 01:10:19,440
sent to people uh over and over starting

1852
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:21,540
last summer when they start talk about

1853
01:10:26,090 --> 01:10:24,239
the perception of intelligence yeah and

1854
01:10:27,649 --> 01:10:26,100
it is just uh when I first saw it I was

1855
01:10:29,570 --> 01:10:27,659
like okay well maybe none of us are

1856
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:29,580
alive then this is just like pure

1857
01:10:31,970 --> 01:10:30,719
physics

1858
01:10:34,250 --> 01:10:31,980
all right I'm going to go ahead and

1859
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:34,260
share this video okay you got it you

1860
01:10:41,330 --> 01:10:36,239
ready if you can turn up the resolution

1861
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:43,310
okay there we go okay so they're yeah

1862
01:10:47,090 --> 01:10:44,880
they're moving the tiny little flakes of

1863
01:10:48,250 --> 01:10:47,100
carbon moving around inside the

1864
01:10:50,270 --> 01:10:48,260
microwave

1865
01:10:52,910 --> 01:10:50,280
circling around the central energy

1866
01:10:55,370 --> 01:10:52,920
source they interact with each other

1867
01:10:57,050 --> 01:10:55,380
some of them are moving like uh the sort

1868
01:10:58,510 --> 01:10:57,060
of Falling Leaf effects some are jumping

1869
01:11:01,070 --> 01:10:58,520
forward periodically

1870
01:11:03,709 --> 01:11:01,080
some fall down from very high

1871
01:11:06,890 --> 01:11:03,719
instantaneously to surface level in

1872
01:11:08,810 --> 01:11:06,900
quotes why these look like Tic Tacs they

1873
01:11:09,950 --> 01:11:08,820
look like insects they look like living

1874
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:09,960
things

1875
01:11:14,270 --> 01:11:12,719
um if you're using phased array radar on

1876
01:11:16,370 --> 01:11:14,280
an object like that you could move it

1877
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,380
around physically with the radar beam

1878
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:18,480
they interact with radar

1879
01:11:22,250 --> 01:11:20,880
they interact with uh all kinds of uh

1880
01:11:24,410 --> 01:11:22,260
you know any kind of thing that can be

1881
01:11:26,270 --> 01:11:24,420
charged so this video anyway very

1882
01:11:28,010 --> 01:11:26,280
interesting you can see it looks like a

1883
01:11:30,530 --> 01:11:28,020
living thing and it just breaks the

1884
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:30,540
carpet charged I mean and it's very

1885
01:11:34,189 --> 01:11:32,400
similar to the claims of the uh kind of

1886
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:34,199
behavior and movement of these things

1887
01:11:38,390 --> 01:11:36,719
yeah just that circling effect around

1888
01:11:39,709 --> 01:11:38,400
like it reminded me so much of what you

1889
01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:39,719
were saying coming together like that

1890
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:41,760
yeah anyway who knows but uh intriguing

1891
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:44,400
yeah oh so um

1892
01:11:47,689 --> 01:11:46,560
Jenny Tilly who I mentioned before I who

1893
01:11:50,870 --> 01:11:47,699
I believe is the source of that

1894
01:11:53,149 --> 01:11:50,880
waterfall UFO um she and a lot of

1895
01:11:55,729 --> 01:11:53,159
members of Michigan mufon

1896
01:11:57,950 --> 01:11:55,739
um ended up leaving because of the way

1897
01:12:01,550 --> 01:11:57,960
mufon was hand the handling of evidence

1898
01:12:04,370 --> 01:12:01,560
a lot of witnesses never got their uh

1899
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:04,380
their provided photos or videos back

1900
01:12:09,169 --> 01:12:06,480
um and there was a big falling out and

1901
01:12:11,870 --> 01:12:09,179
she ended up creating a uh a new group

1902
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:11,880
called beam up there b-i-m-u-p in Grand

1903
01:12:16,490 --> 01:12:13,920
Rapids uh this is a couple years later

1904
01:12:18,530 --> 01:12:16,500
and the on this is uh their publication

1905
01:12:22,189 --> 01:12:18,540
the outer connection I think this is the

1906
01:12:24,050 --> 01:12:22,199
only uh issue that exists wow and it was

1907
01:12:26,750 --> 01:12:24,060
uh it was all it was completely focused

1908
01:12:28,010 --> 01:12:26,760
on the Michigan 94 case uh did I tell

1909
01:12:32,270 --> 01:12:28,020
you you get this did you get this online

1910
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:32,280
or uh this uh this image right here is

1911
01:12:35,030 --> 01:12:33,780
actually what started me down the road

1912
01:12:37,130 --> 01:12:35,040
for this case

1913
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:37,140
um years ago an old friend of mine

1914
01:12:40,430 --> 01:12:38,640
showed me this he's like dude have you

1915
01:12:42,649 --> 01:12:40,440
ever seen this this was from this was

1916
01:12:44,750 --> 01:12:42,659
from in town and it just blew my mind

1917
01:12:46,610 --> 01:12:44,760
because it's it's from the mid 90s like

1918
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:46,620
I I would have freaked out if I had

1919
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:48,480
found this as a kid during this time I

1920
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,820
was a big believer fever and UFOs in the

1921
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:52,560
abduction phenomenon at the time I was a

1922
01:12:57,229 --> 01:12:54,960
big X-Files fan so seeing this would

1923
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,239
have uh would have really freaked me out

1924
01:13:01,490 --> 01:13:00,000
so I was that's cool well this picture

1925
01:13:04,010 --> 01:13:01,500
that they showed me it was a very small

1926
01:13:06,410 --> 01:13:04,020
jpeg image of just this cover and I

1927
01:13:08,750 --> 01:13:06,420
searched for the full copy of it for a

1928
01:13:10,370 --> 01:13:08,760
really long time kind of forgot about it

1929
01:13:12,770 --> 01:13:10,380
and then during the pandemic another

1930
01:13:15,169 --> 01:13:12,780
body of mine kind of influenced me to go

1931
01:13:18,350 --> 01:13:15,179
into UFO podcasting before I realized

1932
01:13:21,770 --> 01:13:18,360
that that Market's oversaturated and uh

1933
01:13:23,450 --> 01:13:21,780
I I picked up my search for this and I

1934
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:23,460
did find the full issue

1935
01:13:28,189 --> 01:13:26,640
um eventually yeah but this issue is

1936
01:13:30,410 --> 01:13:28,199
really interesting

1937
01:13:33,229 --> 01:13:30,420
um there was uh

1938
01:13:35,149 --> 01:13:33,239
she she did kind of a brief overview of

1939
01:13:37,010 --> 01:13:35,159
the case and about her disagreements

1940
01:13:39,290 --> 01:13:37,020
with mufan and why she left

1941
01:13:40,729 --> 01:13:39,300
um but there was another writer and I

1942
01:13:42,770 --> 01:13:40,739
can't remember his name and I can't read

1943
01:13:44,570 --> 01:13:42,780
it off of this what was his name Dave

1944
01:13:47,630 --> 01:13:44,580
Reinhardt that's what it is

1945
01:13:51,709 --> 01:13:47,640
Dave Reinhardt um another new member of

1946
01:13:53,689 --> 01:13:51,719
bema he tells this story in this issue

1947
01:13:55,970 --> 01:13:53,699
of um

1948
01:13:58,970 --> 01:13:55,980
internet chat rooms and forums this is

1949
01:13:59,750 --> 01:13:58,980
early internet we're talking 96 or so I

1950
01:14:02,030 --> 01:13:59,760
think

1951
01:14:04,310 --> 01:14:02,040
um and he meets this

1952
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:04,320
figure with secret connection secret

1953
01:14:14,330 --> 01:14:12,350
he's going on um I he gives it like a a

1954
01:14:17,149 --> 01:14:14,340
pseudonym and they talk back and forth

1955
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:17,159
he says he's a government Insider

1956
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:18,480
um he says he's going he has information

1957
01:14:22,010 --> 01:14:20,640
for him secret information that he took

1958
01:14:24,830 --> 01:14:22,020
from the government is going to send it

1959
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:24,840
to him and then allegedly this figure I

1960
01:14:28,610 --> 01:14:26,640
think he goes by the name Dave in this

1961
01:14:31,370 --> 01:14:28,620
the the pseudonym this deep throat

1962
01:14:33,410 --> 01:14:31,380
character uh allegedly dies and then

1963
01:14:36,470 --> 01:14:33,420
Dave Reinhardt receives an envelope a

1964
01:14:40,189 --> 01:14:36,480
manila envelope and it's filled with

1965
01:14:41,870 --> 01:14:40,199
these Maps now these Maps uh are not

1966
01:14:44,330 --> 01:14:41,880
secret government documents if you look

1967
01:14:47,209 --> 01:14:44,340
at them they are the maps that Michael

1968
01:14:49,070 --> 01:14:47,219
swords and Jack Bouchon Drew

1969
01:14:50,330 --> 01:14:49,080
um now Michael swords kept a copy of

1970
01:14:52,189 --> 01:14:50,340
those maps and he brought them back to

1971
01:14:54,770 --> 01:14:52,199
kufos I have their uh scans of The

1972
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:54,780
Originals and then the other copies went

1973
01:15:01,550 --> 01:14:58,800
to the NOAA so presumably these Maps

1974
01:15:03,410 --> 01:15:01,560
were foiled by someone and sent to the

1975
01:15:05,689 --> 01:15:03,420
Steve Reinhardt guy

1976
01:15:07,310 --> 01:15:05,699
um and he was fed kind of a cloak and

1977
01:15:09,890 --> 01:15:07,320
dagger story around it and I'm not

1978
01:15:12,350 --> 01:15:09,900
exactly sure the purpose of that

1979
01:15:14,810 --> 01:15:12,360
um but this is essentially this is

1980
01:15:16,610 --> 01:15:14,820
technically how these radar blanks

1981
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:16,620
became public because this came out

1982
01:15:22,430 --> 01:15:18,960
before the international UFO reporter

1983
01:15:23,930 --> 01:15:22,440
Journal uh issue on the topic came out

1984
01:15:25,850 --> 01:15:23,940
that would be uh the journal that

1985
01:15:27,830 --> 01:15:25,860
Michael swords wrote his piece in so I

1986
01:15:30,470 --> 01:15:27,840
mean um his piece actually mentions

1987
01:15:32,750 --> 01:15:30,480
receiving an issue of this they sent it

1988
01:15:34,070 --> 01:15:32,760
to him and he's reading the article he's

1989
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:34,080
like this is interesting I recognize his

1990
01:15:37,970 --> 01:15:35,760
name Jenny Tilly and then he sees his

1991
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:37,980
own maps in the back attached to this

1992
01:15:42,830 --> 01:15:40,080
book and Dagger story and he's like this

1993
01:15:44,270 --> 01:15:42,840
is really odd and he wrote her I my

1994
01:15:45,649 --> 01:15:44,280
perspective was kind of a rude letter I

1995
01:15:47,810 --> 01:15:45,659
have a copy of that too if you guys

1996
01:15:49,729 --> 01:15:47,820
privately want to see that

1997
01:15:51,649 --> 01:15:49,739
um

1998
01:15:52,850 --> 01:15:51,659
so there's a bit of animosity in between

1999
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:52,860
these UFO groups as they were

2000
01:15:57,890 --> 01:15:55,920
investigating are kind of uh hurling

2001
01:16:00,950 --> 01:15:57,900
um judgment backing

2002
01:16:03,649 --> 01:16:00,960
that's where this case sits um mufon

2003
01:16:06,050 --> 01:16:03,659
wrote it one Journal article about it

2004
01:16:07,729 --> 01:16:06,060
Michael swords in the iur wrote One

2005
01:16:10,310 --> 01:16:07,739
Journal article about it

2006
01:16:12,649 --> 01:16:10,320
um he comes to a couple conclusions and

2007
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:12,659
does a little bit of math that I think

2008
01:16:17,209 --> 01:16:14,940
was wrong and math is not my strong suit

2009
01:16:19,010 --> 01:16:17,219
um but I do mention all of this the the

2010
01:16:21,709 --> 01:16:19,020
subsequent investigations in the part

2011
01:16:23,570 --> 01:16:21,719
two of my videos on the original

2012
01:16:25,130 --> 01:16:23,580
invisible night school YouTube channel

2013
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:25,140
you should probably change the name of

2014
01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:27,120
that but uh I'll go over that a little

2015
01:16:30,649 --> 01:16:27,840
bit

2016
01:16:34,430 --> 01:16:30,659
but then this this case that they tout

2017
01:16:36,709 --> 01:16:34,440
as uh the best the best uh witnessed

2018
01:16:39,290 --> 01:16:36,719
case in modern history

2019
01:16:41,570 --> 01:16:39,300
gets dropped uh no one Falls follows up

2020
01:16:43,310 --> 01:16:41,580
with Michigan mufon for these videos to

2021
01:16:45,110 --> 01:16:43,320
close that Gap and this is where we sit

2022
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:45,120
and now

2023
01:16:50,750 --> 01:16:47,760
um you know every couple years they'll

2024
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:50,760
do a local piece on uh on my news in

2025
01:16:54,229 --> 01:16:51,840
Michigan

2026
01:16:57,050 --> 01:16:54,239
um UFO Hunters Will that's right this is

2027
01:16:58,910 --> 01:16:57,060
in your backyard yeah I I visited the uh

2028
01:17:01,490 --> 01:16:58,920
the underground locations setting times

2029
01:17:03,950 --> 01:17:01,500
multiple times just to kind of get a

2030
01:17:06,229 --> 01:17:03,960
perspective and feel uh you know on the

2031
01:17:08,090 --> 01:17:06,239
ground actually looking seeing where

2032
01:17:11,390 --> 01:17:08,100
they're watching is I wanted to feel it

2033
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,400
out how now how much of this is part of

2034
01:17:15,709 --> 01:17:13,440
like the local Zeitgeist like do people

2035
01:17:17,390 --> 01:17:15,719
know about this case does the guy at the

2036
01:17:20,390 --> 01:17:17,400
weed store know about this kiss no

2037
01:17:21,890 --> 01:17:20,400
nobody does that's why I uh agreed in

2038
01:17:23,090 --> 01:17:21,900
the first place to even participate with

2039
01:17:24,290 --> 01:17:23,100
Unsolved Mysteries while I was

2040
01:17:25,669 --> 01:17:24,300
researching

2041
01:17:27,770 --> 01:17:25,679
is that

2042
01:17:29,870 --> 01:17:27,780
more awareness of this case gets more

2043
01:17:31,970 --> 01:17:29,880
eyes and Minds on it to maybe help

2044
01:17:33,590 --> 01:17:31,980
figure it out and it's just a really

2045
01:17:36,590 --> 01:17:33,600
cool case and it really surprises me

2046
01:17:38,270 --> 01:17:36,600
that people know the Phoenix lights or

2047
01:17:40,430 --> 01:17:38,280
the aerial School case and they don't

2048
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:40,440
know this right when this one's actually

2049
01:17:44,930 --> 01:17:43,440
I think a compelling mystery I mean I I

2050
01:17:46,189 --> 01:17:44,940
feel like this is better than a lot of

2051
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:46,199
those ones that people typically know

2052
01:17:50,110 --> 01:17:47,940
even like things like Roswell and stuff

2053
01:17:52,970 --> 01:17:50,120
like that right

2054
01:17:56,990 --> 01:17:52,980
and like Phoenix Lights like when there

2055
01:17:58,729 --> 01:17:57,000
is a verification that a military plane

2056
01:18:00,770 --> 01:17:58,739
was dropping flares in there even if it

2057
01:18:02,450 --> 01:18:00,780
was ours separate or whatever it kind of

2058
01:18:04,610 --> 01:18:02,460
makes it like okay it's a bit of a

2059
01:18:06,649 --> 01:18:04,620
write-off and it's just interesting like

2060
01:18:08,450 --> 01:18:06,659
you know Simon fly at the start was like

2061
01:18:10,610 --> 01:18:08,460
oh could these have been uh military

2062
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:10,620
players you know it's the famous

2063
01:18:14,090 --> 01:18:12,719
question we should ask but absolutely uh

2064
01:18:15,950 --> 01:18:14,100
the radar operator was looking for

2065
01:18:17,810 --> 01:18:15,960
planes and stuff right and so like he

2066
01:18:19,490 --> 01:18:17,820
would have seen that so it makes it more

2067
01:18:21,590 --> 01:18:19,500
compelling in some ways for that reason

2068
01:18:23,570 --> 01:18:21,600
as well so right your point stands very

2069
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:23,580
yeah he said he did say that the returns

2070
01:18:28,430 --> 01:18:26,400
were were much brighter than even like

2071
01:18:30,229 --> 01:18:28,440
commercial Jets so you have to

2072
01:18:32,330 --> 01:18:30,239
understand they I mean the kind of he

2073
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:32,340
described it as a band essentially for

2074
01:18:37,850 --> 01:18:35,280
each return as a like a

2075
01:18:39,770 --> 01:18:37,860
flat band and The Wider the band is the

2076
01:18:42,350 --> 01:18:39,780
brighter or the stronger the return like

2077
01:18:44,450 --> 01:18:42,360
Radars work by firing microwaves at

2078
01:18:47,570 --> 01:18:44,460
things and what bounces back is that

2079
01:18:49,790 --> 01:18:47,580
signal and it was nearly a full return

2080
01:18:51,290 --> 01:18:49,800
and it was very bright as he called it I

2081
01:18:52,970 --> 01:18:51,300
remember yeah I remember him like on the

2082
01:18:55,729 --> 01:18:52,980
Unsolved Mysteries he said something to

2083
01:18:57,950 --> 01:18:55,739
the effect of like it uh he was

2084
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:57,960
expecting that it would have been highly

2085
01:19:03,050 --> 01:19:00,480
polished metal based on the return

2086
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:03,060
because like nothing else is like that

2087
01:19:08,510 --> 01:19:06,480
vibrate yeah something like extremely

2088
01:19:09,950 --> 01:19:08,520
reflective which also kind of speaks so

2089
01:19:11,390 --> 01:19:09,960
I mentioned it earlier where he said he

2090
01:19:13,790 --> 01:19:11,400
thought that maybe whatever these things

2091
01:19:16,970 --> 01:19:13,800
were were assisting the signal so like

2092
01:19:19,490 --> 01:19:16,980
firing microwaves back to yes he seen

2093
01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:19,500
which is like a common theme in UFO

2094
01:19:23,570 --> 01:19:21,120
sightings a lot of people a lot of

2095
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,580
witnesses say they like they felt it

2096
01:19:28,070 --> 01:19:25,440
wanted to be seen and they also had the

2097
01:19:29,570 --> 01:19:28,080
impression that The Observers were aware

2098
01:19:32,149 --> 01:19:29,580
and there were there was kind of a dual

2099
01:19:34,610 --> 01:19:32,159
awareness there you see that in his

2100
01:19:37,310 --> 01:19:34,620
experience and his unconventional kind

2101
01:19:39,890 --> 01:19:37,320
of witnessing of this event and well in

2102
01:19:41,750 --> 01:19:39,900
the UAP in the UK ADR report that a

2103
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:41,760
secret British report uh written by

2104
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:44,100
their uh top radar expert and then he

2105
01:19:48,590 --> 01:19:46,080
just he uh you know we've gone over it

2106
01:19:49,970 --> 01:19:48,600
but he asserts that uh UFOs do exist and

2107
01:19:52,010 --> 01:19:49,980
they're probably these atmospheric

2108
01:19:53,450 --> 01:19:52,020
plasma phenomena ball lightning type

2109
01:19:56,090 --> 01:19:53,460
things now something interesting in

2110
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:56,100
there it's he's talking about how the

2111
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,560
energy level the ionization level of the

2112
01:20:01,970 --> 01:20:00,719
object can produce different effects so

2113
01:20:04,610 --> 01:20:01,980
sometimes it could be visually

2114
01:20:06,290 --> 01:20:04,620
observable like uh you know luminous

2115
01:20:07,610 --> 01:20:06,300
other times it's traveling around but

2116
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:07,620
it's fully invisible because it's just

2117
01:20:11,390 --> 01:20:09,360
not ionizing the air around it so it's

2118
01:20:13,430 --> 01:20:11,400
actually like the it's a ball of energy

2119
01:20:16,850 --> 01:20:13,440
but it depends on like the wavelength

2120
01:20:19,490 --> 01:20:16,860
and stuff and then um

2121
01:20:21,169 --> 01:20:19,500
yeah I don't know it's just the the way

2122
01:20:24,830 --> 01:20:21,179
that the report in the UK talks about it

2123
01:20:29,209 --> 01:20:24,840
it like the you would expect the objects

2124
01:20:31,370 --> 01:20:29,219
based on uh their nature uh to interact

2125
01:20:33,410 --> 01:20:31,380
with radar systems and therefore it

2126
01:20:35,090 --> 01:20:33,420
would appear that they are interacting

2127
01:20:37,729 --> 01:20:35,100
with the radar in some way like yeah

2128
01:20:39,890 --> 01:20:37,739
it's kind of like in the Nimitz event

2129
01:20:41,689 --> 01:20:39,900
um I was talking to an engineering a

2130
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:41,699
German engineer guy and he was telling

2131
01:20:48,169 --> 01:20:44,880
me that you would actually expect that

2132
01:20:50,770 --> 01:20:48,179
if uh Kevin Day zoomed in on um the uh

2133
01:20:53,450 --> 01:20:50,780
what could have been a plasmoid and then

2134
01:20:57,590 --> 01:20:53,460
switched the radar over very quickly to

2135
01:21:00,050 --> 01:20:57,600
the um uh Rendezvous point it could have

2136
01:21:01,669 --> 01:21:00,060
actually physically dragged the plasmoid

2137
01:21:03,950 --> 01:21:01,679
and that would be what would have

2138
01:21:05,450 --> 01:21:03,960
because because it's phased away radar

2139
01:21:07,370 --> 01:21:05,460
it is a very tight beam you control

2140
01:21:09,229 --> 01:21:07,380
exactly where it is and the Soviets were

2141
01:21:10,970 --> 01:21:09,239
using these experiments in the 90s and

2142
01:21:13,370 --> 01:21:10,980
uh I mean conceptually the Russians

2143
01:21:15,709 --> 01:21:13,380
moving forward uh to actually control

2144
01:21:17,930 --> 01:21:15,719
plasma phenomena using phase array radar

2145
01:21:20,209 --> 01:21:17,940
and stuff so it's like a known mechanism

2146
01:21:21,709 --> 01:21:20,219
and the radar gets bounced off these

2147
01:21:23,450 --> 01:21:21,719
things or depending on the entry level

2148
01:21:24,649 --> 01:21:23,460
doesn't bounce off so like all these

2149
01:21:27,410 --> 01:21:24,659
things are consistent with the

2150
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:27,420
possibility of uh this sort of now

2151
01:21:30,950 --> 01:21:29,040
explaining it

2152
01:21:32,689 --> 01:21:30,960
um in in the episode now Jack never

2153
01:21:34,370 --> 01:21:32,699
personally claimed this to me in the

2154
01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:34,380
several conversations that we've had but

2155
01:21:37,790 --> 01:21:36,000
he did mention this in the show and it

2156
01:21:40,850 --> 01:21:37,800
does kind of track with what I do know

2157
01:21:43,669 --> 01:21:40,860
is that he did say that they seem to

2158
01:21:45,890 --> 01:21:43,679
stay in the cone of his beam as he was

2159
01:21:47,570 --> 01:21:45,900
shining it down there it appeared that

2160
01:21:50,810 --> 01:21:47,580
they kind of they were bouncing around

2161
01:21:53,149 --> 01:21:50,820
and moving but within that cone so I

2162
01:21:55,790 --> 01:21:53,159
mean similarity with day's uh accounts

2163
01:21:58,790 --> 01:21:55,800
too jumping up and down in altitude The

2164
01:22:01,430 --> 01:21:58,800
Bouncing Around very similar

2165
01:22:02,810 --> 01:22:01,440
but um aside from that I yeah like I

2166
01:22:04,490 --> 01:22:02,820
said they've they've done a couple shows

2167
01:22:06,050 --> 01:22:04,500
on it but it's it's still not a

2168
01:22:07,790 --> 01:22:06,060
well-known case

2169
01:22:09,470 --> 01:22:07,800
what I think it's an interesting one and

2170
01:22:11,810 --> 01:22:09,480
I mean that and that's where it stays we

2171
01:22:13,790 --> 01:22:11,820
still have those 10 videos and a dozen

2172
01:22:15,709 --> 01:22:13,800
photographs that known as seen except

2173
01:22:18,050 --> 01:22:15,719
for uh mufon

2174
01:22:19,550 --> 01:22:18,060
and uh and that's it and I think that

2175
01:22:22,250 --> 01:22:19,560
they could

2176
01:22:24,530 --> 01:22:22,260
possibly make that connection between

2177
01:22:27,530 --> 01:22:24,540
the um the on the ground and the radar

2178
01:22:30,050 --> 01:22:27,540
settings we don't know until we see them

2179
01:22:31,970 --> 01:22:30,060
um and I'm still always reaching out

2180
01:22:33,350 --> 01:22:31,980
trying to find more witnesses find more

2181
01:22:34,910 --> 01:22:33,360
information about this case I'm going to

2182
01:22:37,010 --> 01:22:34,920
look into that campsite as one of the

2183
01:22:39,410 --> 01:22:37,020
viewers asked me about

2184
01:22:43,250 --> 01:22:39,420
um and I'm I'm still investigating this

2185
01:22:45,470 --> 01:22:43,260
case I think I will until we can at

2186
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:45,480
least come up with a fairly plausible

2187
01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:47,280
solution for it

2188
01:22:52,370 --> 01:22:49,500
and what's the primary angle you're uh

2189
01:22:56,330 --> 01:22:52,380
using right now is it sort of trying to

2190
01:22:58,430 --> 01:22:56,340
get in to that uh exact Claim about the

2191
01:22:59,510 --> 01:22:58,440
observation with the video occurring at

2192
01:23:01,490 --> 01:22:59,520
the same time as the router is that sort

2193
01:23:03,530 --> 01:23:01,500
of the most promising thing I the what

2194
01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:03,540
I'm trying to do and what I've done a

2195
01:23:09,229 --> 01:23:07,080
little bit is I I'm trying to Nail Time

2196
01:23:10,910 --> 01:23:09,239
down like essentially time stamp

2197
01:23:13,669 --> 01:23:10,920
everything

2198
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:13,679
um due to the way the the 9-1-1 tape was

2199
01:23:20,450 --> 01:23:15,600
recorded I'm not sure if I can actually

2200
01:23:22,910 --> 01:23:20,460
use that to denote time the two like I

2201
01:23:25,669 --> 01:23:22,920
know that Holly Graves made that 9-1-1

2202
01:23:27,890 --> 01:23:25,679
call at 9 35 and I know officer

2203
01:23:31,430 --> 01:23:27,900
velthouse showed up at her house at 9

2204
01:23:32,990 --> 01:23:31,440
45. those are the two known points you

2205
01:23:35,570 --> 01:23:33,000
can kind of

2206
01:23:38,510 --> 01:23:35,580
make rough estimates uh due to the

2207
01:23:40,550 --> 01:23:38,520
length of certain calls on the tape but

2208
01:23:44,090 --> 01:23:40,560
like like for instance there's no

2209
01:23:45,649 --> 01:23:44,100
specific exact time that dispatch called

2210
01:23:47,209 --> 01:23:45,659
Jack

2211
01:23:49,310 --> 01:23:47,219
um that would really help I mean we have

2212
01:23:51,350 --> 01:23:49,320
his estimates of time we have the

2213
01:23:53,149 --> 01:23:51,360
witnesses estimates of time and we have

2214
01:23:55,250 --> 01:23:53,159
those two time points

2215
01:23:56,870 --> 01:23:55,260
if I could Hammer that down with any new

2216
01:23:59,330 --> 01:23:56,880
information I could find it it might

2217
01:24:00,709 --> 01:23:59,340
make it better because like my goal and

2218
01:24:04,010 --> 01:24:00,719
this is what I explained to those

2219
01:24:05,570 --> 01:24:04,020
producers as well is um I want to I want

2220
01:24:08,209 --> 01:24:05,580
to conclusively link

2221
01:24:09,290 --> 01:24:08,219
visual sighting to the radar signing you

2222
01:24:12,350 --> 01:24:09,300
know what I mean we have the general

2223
01:24:14,750 --> 01:24:12,360
motion of the things that appears I mean

2224
01:24:17,030 --> 01:24:14,760
like it probably was the same thing but

2225
01:24:20,149 --> 01:24:17,040
we can't say that for certain and I I

2226
01:24:22,490 --> 01:24:20,159
would like to feel more comfortable

2227
01:24:24,110 --> 01:24:22,500
um gaps in the weather data I I've

2228
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:24,120
limited weather information I know that

2229
01:24:26,790 --> 01:24:25,679
it was a clear night I know that it was

2230
01:24:27,530 --> 01:24:26,800
cold

2231
01:24:28,310 --> 01:24:27,540
[Music]

2232
01:24:30,770 --> 01:24:28,320
um

2233
01:24:32,390 --> 01:24:30,780
I know that a couple of investigators in

2234
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:32,400
their journals wrote that they checked

2235
01:24:35,810 --> 01:24:33,600
the weather information though they

2236
01:24:37,370 --> 01:24:35,820
didn't provide any actual data I think

2237
01:24:38,570 --> 01:24:37,380
that is something that you can look up

2238
01:24:40,790 --> 01:24:38,580
though I mean like multiple

2239
01:24:42,350 --> 01:24:40,800
organizations yeah you should have Noah

2240
01:24:43,370 --> 01:24:42,360
should have historical weather data

2241
01:24:45,470 --> 01:24:43,380
available

2242
01:24:47,570 --> 01:24:45,480
I may have even looked it up before but

2243
01:24:48,649 --> 01:24:47,580
never actually done anything with it

2244
01:24:50,570 --> 01:24:48,659
because it's a little outside my

2245
01:24:52,490 --> 01:24:50,580
wheelhouse

2246
01:24:54,410 --> 01:24:52,500
um what's the list of this comment from

2247
01:24:55,970 --> 01:24:54,420
Dylan I guess I'm stuck in color tonight

2248
01:24:57,229 --> 01:24:55,980
any instance of the laboratory

2249
01:24:59,209 --> 01:24:57,239
phenomenon in Campbell's video

2250
01:25:01,010 --> 01:24:59,219
exhibiting colors like green and blue as

2251
01:25:03,229 --> 01:25:01,020
well the movement plus radar interaction

2252
01:25:04,610 --> 01:25:03,239
does seem to fit yeah that's an

2253
01:25:05,870 --> 01:25:04,620
excellent question that's something that

2254
01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:05,880
I've been thinking about a lot too

2255
01:25:10,250 --> 01:25:07,920
especially when I was watching the uh

2256
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:10,260
first half of this on Netflix earlier

2257
01:25:14,689 --> 01:25:11,600
the the

2258
01:25:16,189 --> 01:25:14,699
multi-colored uh statements uh it clicks

2259
01:25:19,070 --> 01:25:16,199
with me because those are observations

2260
01:25:21,169 --> 01:25:19,080
that have been made in hezdalen those

2261
01:25:25,130 --> 01:25:21,179
are observations that have been reported

2262
01:25:27,890 --> 01:25:25,140
by uh Navy uh eyewitnesses uh something

2263
01:25:30,350 --> 01:25:27,900
that makes no sense like uh is bro you

2264
01:25:32,570 --> 01:25:30,360
know lights that are changing like a

2265
01:25:33,290 --> 01:25:32,580
Christmas tree like coloration

2266
01:25:34,970 --> 01:25:33,300
um

2267
01:25:37,490 --> 01:25:34,980
I mean some of that could just be like

2268
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:37,500
atmospheric right like yeah computed a

2269
01:25:40,490 --> 01:25:39,600
distance with any kind of cloud cover or

2270
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:40,500
especially if we're talking about like

2271
01:25:44,570 --> 01:25:42,719
electrical phenomena like I mean I just

2272
01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:44,580
think of how like it makes me think of

2273
01:25:49,189 --> 01:25:47,340
like neon signs right how different gas

2274
01:25:51,590 --> 01:25:49,199
compositions Electrify with different

2275
01:25:53,570 --> 01:25:51,600
colors this is exactly this is exactly

2276
01:25:55,850 --> 01:25:53,580
what Dr titirani has written about in

2277
01:25:57,290 --> 01:25:55,860
his paper that exact thing um like

2278
01:25:58,669 --> 01:25:57,300
different kinds of meteorites when they

2279
01:26:00,649 --> 01:25:58,679
come through the atmosphere they burn

2280
01:26:02,270 --> 01:26:00,659
different colors because it's ionization

2281
01:26:04,550 --> 01:26:02,280
of different elements

2282
01:26:06,110 --> 01:26:04,560
um the color is the element being burned

2283
01:26:08,330 --> 01:26:06,120
and um there are actually some

2284
01:26:12,229 --> 01:26:08,340
interesting photos he's got in his paper

2285
01:26:14,990 --> 01:26:12,239
of a uh trying three uh light balls

2286
01:26:17,270 --> 01:26:15,000
together over the Treetops with a red

2287
01:26:19,850 --> 01:26:17,280
and a blue uh smaller lights that seem

2288
01:26:21,410 --> 01:26:19,860
to be um he claimed he says based on the

2289
01:26:24,229 --> 01:26:21,420
observation at the time that they were

2290
01:26:25,910 --> 01:26:24,239
rotating around he's saying he thinks

2291
01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:25,920
that they are different elements being

2292
01:26:30,649 --> 01:26:28,080
ionized and the different colors could

2293
01:26:34,250 --> 01:26:30,659
be different uh aerosols that are in the

2294
01:26:36,830 --> 01:26:34,260
uh specific air in that location because

2295
01:26:40,910 --> 01:26:36,840
in the lab experiments what you do is

2296
01:26:42,830 --> 01:26:40,920
you inject a high burst of energy with a

2297
01:26:45,470 --> 01:26:42,840
variety of substances which sometimes

2298
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:45,480
can be aerosolized particles or a fluid

2299
01:26:51,470 --> 01:26:47,760
solution so the makeup of those things

2300
01:26:53,689 --> 01:26:51,480
does produce that effect and um you can

2301
01:26:55,970 --> 01:26:53,699
produce all the different colors in a in

2302
01:26:57,709 --> 01:26:55,980
a laboratory environment and maybe I'll

2303
01:26:59,209 --> 01:26:57,719
uh I'll just send you Leah a video

2304
01:27:00,649 --> 01:26:59,219
quickly that's really cool on YouTube

2305
01:27:02,090 --> 01:27:00,659
that we could just click through really

2306
01:27:04,610 --> 01:27:02,100
fast because it shows all the different

2307
01:27:06,530 --> 01:27:04,620
colors in a plasmoid in a high energy

2308
01:27:09,490 --> 01:27:06,540
environment so I'll just grab that right

2309
01:27:12,649 --> 01:27:11,270
go ahead

2310
01:27:14,209 --> 01:27:12,659
I was gonna I was just gonna call out

2311
01:27:16,370 --> 01:27:14,219
this comment from hinch here Leah went

2312
01:27:17,330 --> 01:27:16,380
to RPI I'm from Waterford uh hinge I

2313
01:27:19,550 --> 01:27:17,340
don't know if you're saying you went to

2314
01:27:21,050 --> 01:27:19,560
RPI but I went to RPI

2315
01:27:23,390 --> 01:27:21,060
um former U.S Coast Guard writer

2316
01:27:25,610 --> 01:27:23,400
technician Raytheon 64x band radar top

2317
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:25,620
secret clearance got some UFO data

2318
01:27:30,530 --> 01:27:28,080
that's never seen the public eye well I

2319
01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:30,540
have great news for you I have open DMS

2320
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:32,340
on Twitter that's my name feel free to

2321
01:27:35,570 --> 01:27:34,080
shoot me a message would love to talk to

2322
01:27:37,189 --> 01:27:35,580
you about this I use all kinds of

2323
01:27:40,010 --> 01:27:37,199
end-to-end encrypted Communications

2324
01:27:42,169 --> 01:27:40,020
including signal WhatsApp protonmail Etc

2325
01:27:45,050 --> 01:27:42,179
so if you ever want to talk shop feel

2326
01:27:46,550 --> 01:27:45,060
free to hit me up uh David borer says

2327
01:27:50,270 --> 01:27:46,560
shouldn't there be way more witnesses

2328
01:27:52,910 --> 01:27:50,280
now um if you listen to the radar or the

2329
01:27:55,010 --> 01:27:52,920
uh 911 call the dispatcher mentions

2330
01:27:56,990 --> 01:27:55,020
approximately 60 calls I don't know if

2331
01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:57,000
that was an exaggeration or not since we

2332
01:28:00,229 --> 01:27:58,800
only that's a lot of calls it is an

2333
01:28:01,790 --> 01:28:00,239
event that's only 30 minutes and I mean

2334
01:28:02,689 --> 01:28:01,800
this isn't we're not talking about a

2335
01:28:06,590 --> 01:28:02,699
super

2336
01:28:08,209 --> 01:28:06,600
like it's it's City but we're not

2337
01:28:10,370 --> 01:28:08,219
talking about Midtown Manhattan right

2338
01:28:11,930 --> 01:28:10,380
you know if we're talking it's suburbs

2339
01:28:14,209 --> 01:28:11,940
um yeah it's it's suburbs it's nine

2340
01:28:15,530 --> 01:28:14,219
o'clock at night in March right so

2341
01:28:18,229 --> 01:28:15,540
people are gonna be out barbecuing or

2342
01:28:19,370 --> 01:28:18,239
walking the dog now uh mulfon makes the

2343
01:28:22,790 --> 01:28:19,380
claim that there were hundreds of

2344
01:28:24,169 --> 01:28:22,800
witnesses um however really yes in their

2345
01:28:28,010 --> 01:28:24,179
Journal

2346
01:28:30,169 --> 01:28:28,020
um however those reports aren't anywhere

2347
01:28:32,330 --> 01:28:30,179
um we the reports I personally have are

2348
01:28:36,649 --> 01:28:32,340
from one investigator Donald uh Donald

2349
01:28:38,689 --> 01:28:36,659
Ashley and he he interviewed a the truck

2350
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:38,699
driver who saw it the night before Cindy

2351
01:28:44,209 --> 01:28:41,760
pravta um and the graves family and

2352
01:28:46,790 --> 01:28:44,219
officer velt house those are those are

2353
01:28:48,290 --> 01:28:46,800
the only um filled out you know mufon

2354
01:28:50,570 --> 01:28:48,300
their field investigators have those

2355
01:28:52,310 --> 01:28:50,580
forms that they fill out where you know

2356
01:28:54,410 --> 01:28:52,320
you check off a little boxes how far was

2357
01:28:56,570 --> 01:28:54,420
it what like how high was it they they

2358
01:28:59,030 --> 01:28:56,580
estimated Tree Top level it's like a

2359
01:29:00,950 --> 01:28:59,040
woo-woo police report exactly yes yeah

2360
01:29:02,270 --> 01:29:00,960
they draw little pictures and stuff like

2361
01:29:04,610 --> 01:29:02,280
that but like I said you know it was the

2362
01:29:06,410 --> 01:29:04,620
five or six Witnesses

2363
01:29:08,270 --> 01:29:06,420
um yet the article does claim hundreds

2364
01:29:10,729 --> 01:29:08,280
now there are scatter shot witnesses

2365
01:29:12,169 --> 01:29:10,739
that I spoken to a couple of them um if

2366
01:29:13,970 --> 01:29:12,179
you look at my personal YouTube channel

2367
01:29:16,010 --> 01:29:13,980
I have an interview with a couple of

2368
01:29:18,050 --> 01:29:16,020
them there

2369
01:29:20,330 --> 01:29:18,060
um someone flying assessment in fact

2370
01:29:22,250 --> 01:29:20,340
claimed to have he was a student at

2371
01:29:24,229 --> 01:29:22,260
Western which is where Professor swords

2372
01:29:26,149 --> 01:29:24,239
taught at the time he said he saw it

2373
01:29:27,470 --> 01:29:26,159
from the air

2374
01:29:29,330 --> 01:29:27,480
um

2375
01:29:33,050 --> 01:29:29,340
there were some commercial pilots that

2376
01:29:35,270 --> 01:29:33,060
allegedly saw it also flying into O'Hare

2377
01:29:36,050 --> 01:29:35,280
um and they apparently appeared on a TV

2378
01:29:37,850 --> 01:29:36,060
show

2379
01:29:40,610 --> 01:29:37,860
um I'd have to check the magazine uh

2380
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:40,620
again for the exact one although

2381
01:29:43,010 --> 01:29:41,280
um

2382
01:29:45,770 --> 01:29:43,020
his bosses caught one of it and made him

2383
01:29:48,050 --> 01:29:45,780
drop it I haven't personally seen that I

2384
01:29:50,030 --> 01:29:48,060
can't find a copy I've seen more recent

2385
01:29:52,129 --> 01:29:50,040
stuff uh but there were there were more

2386
01:29:54,890 --> 01:29:52,139
witnesses well and like I said that

2387
01:29:56,870 --> 01:29:54,900
waterfall UFO uh Witness

2388
01:29:59,510 --> 01:29:56,880
that that could have been from back then

2389
01:30:01,550 --> 01:29:59,520
you know it's completely possible like I

2390
01:30:04,010 --> 01:30:01,560
said there were there were a slot a

2391
01:30:05,930 --> 01:30:04,020
Swatch of witnesses that happened that

2392
01:30:08,209 --> 01:30:05,940
night uh allegedly according to move on

2393
01:30:10,250 --> 01:30:08,219
so there's room for it

2394
01:30:12,470 --> 01:30:10,260
um but the witnesses that

2395
01:30:14,689 --> 01:30:12,480
have value in my opinion to the story

2396
01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:14,699
are the ones that are recorded so we can

2397
01:30:18,050 --> 01:30:16,260
kind of have corroboration for that

2398
01:30:20,330 --> 01:30:18,060
because anyone after the fact can kind

2399
01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:20,340
of say that they witness it in fact if

2400
01:30:24,229 --> 01:30:22,800
you are a um a member of mufon and you

2401
01:30:26,990 --> 01:30:24,239
go to their database on their website

2402
01:30:30,290 --> 01:30:27,000
you'll see under this case that there

2403
01:30:32,510 --> 01:30:30,300
was a person who after the fact reported

2404
01:30:34,610 --> 01:30:32,520
to mufon that they had a dream that this

2405
01:30:36,169 --> 01:30:34,620
sighting was going to happen and that

2406
01:30:38,510 --> 01:30:36,179
was basically the extent of the

2407
01:30:42,129 --> 01:30:38,520
information that mufan hosts on this if

2408
01:30:49,370 --> 01:30:46,850
I uh I I got that video that you shared

2409
01:30:51,410 --> 01:30:49,380
on plasma let me get this shared real

2410
01:30:53,270 --> 01:30:51,420
quick yeah it's pretty cool one yeah

2411
01:30:56,629 --> 01:30:53,280
because it's just like a standard uh

2412
01:31:00,290 --> 01:30:56,639
microwave and uh you know these uh

2413
01:31:03,350 --> 01:31:00,890
um

2414
01:31:06,410 --> 01:31:03,360
yeah it'll like uh change color and

2415
01:31:10,669 --> 01:31:08,570
and uh the video shows like there's just

2416
01:31:12,410 --> 01:31:10,679
a wide variety of different materials he

2417
01:31:14,810 --> 01:31:12,420
just keeps putting different materials

2418
01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,820
into the tray and then microwaving them

2419
01:31:18,169 --> 01:31:16,080
and it produces all different colors

2420
01:31:18,770 --> 01:31:18,179
based on the materials that he's doing

2421
01:31:21,530 --> 01:31:18,780
um

2422
01:31:23,629 --> 01:31:21,540
the Spectra he's uh it shows all of the

2423
01:31:25,430 --> 01:31:23,639
spectral readings it's pretty cool yeah

2424
01:31:27,050 --> 01:31:25,440
and then later in the video you see

2425
01:31:28,189 --> 01:31:27,060
there's actually like a highly stable

2426
01:31:30,169 --> 01:31:28,199
one

2427
01:31:32,570 --> 01:31:30,179
um that ends up flying around freely in

2428
01:31:34,910 --> 01:31:32,580
the microwave it's quite interesting and

2429
01:31:36,890 --> 01:31:34,920
it actually exhibits some of the Motions

2430
01:31:39,830 --> 01:31:36,900
um of the ping pong of the ping pong

2431
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:39,840
motion that uh fraver describes uh it

2432
01:31:43,430 --> 01:31:42,000
goes to the top of the microwave and

2433
01:31:45,350 --> 01:31:43,440
just starts going back and forth like

2434
01:31:47,149 --> 01:31:45,360
actually like essentially exactly how I

2435
01:31:48,950 --> 01:31:47,159
describe because it's interacting with

2436
01:31:51,169 --> 01:31:48,960
the energy source

2437
01:31:53,930 --> 01:31:51,179
it's really fascinating well I mean

2438
01:31:56,090 --> 01:31:53,940
that's that's where I'm at with the case

2439
01:31:58,129 --> 01:31:56,100
now like I said I'm still always looking

2440
01:32:00,770 --> 01:31:58,139
for more information on it

2441
01:32:02,390 --> 01:32:00,780
um and I'm also trying to nail down that

2442
01:32:05,149 --> 01:32:02,400
timeline and also speak to new Witnesses

2443
01:32:07,669 --> 01:32:05,159
where I can yeah I was gonna say Nick if

2444
01:32:09,470 --> 01:32:07,679
uh any viewers or listeners want to get

2445
01:32:11,090 --> 01:32:09,480
in touch with you to talk about this or

2446
01:32:12,470 --> 01:32:11,100
share anything what's the best way to

2447
01:32:14,930 --> 01:32:12,480
find you

2448
01:32:16,610 --> 01:32:14,940
um you can find me on on Twitter imvs

2449
01:32:18,410 --> 01:32:16,620
night school

2450
01:32:19,250 --> 01:32:18,420
um or I do have an email address

2451
01:32:20,689 --> 01:32:19,260
associated with the

2452
01:32:22,870 --> 01:32:20,699
invisiblemyschool.com

2453
01:32:25,550 --> 01:32:22,880
no

2454
01:32:27,709 --> 01:32:25,560
we probably should we should set up a

2455
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:27,719
dedicated proton male so people can send

2456
01:32:32,990 --> 01:32:30,239
us Hot Tips yeah absolutely or yeah just

2457
01:32:35,390 --> 01:32:33,000
just hit me up on Twitter or um or

2458
01:32:36,830 --> 01:32:35,400
comment below I I actually uh I met a

2459
01:32:38,270 --> 01:32:36,840
witness that I didn't know about in

2460
01:32:40,370 --> 01:32:38,280
YouTube comments

2461
01:32:43,610 --> 01:32:40,380
um cool one of my uh one of the local

2462
01:32:46,310 --> 01:32:43,620
network Affiliates ran a piece on this

2463
01:32:47,390 --> 01:32:46,320
um maybe six months ago or so and in the

2464
01:32:48,649 --> 01:32:47,400
comment section is where I actually

2465
01:32:51,590 --> 01:32:48,659
hooked up with one of the witnesses

2466
01:32:52,669 --> 01:32:51,600
where she saw she was um attending high

2467
01:32:53,570 --> 01:32:52,679
school at the time she'd just come back

2468
01:32:55,729 --> 01:32:53,580
from

2469
01:32:57,470 --> 01:32:55,739
some kind of competitive thing I don't

2470
01:32:58,970 --> 01:32:57,480
remember what sport or maybe it was

2471
01:33:01,129 --> 01:32:58,980
um cheer or something like that or

2472
01:33:03,110 --> 01:33:01,139
basketball maybe she had just come home

2473
01:33:05,330 --> 01:33:03,120
with her mom and

2474
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:05,340
felt compelled to look up outside the

2475
01:33:10,370 --> 01:33:07,679
door looked up and saw this bright white

2476
01:33:14,930 --> 01:33:13,070
I I specifically asked her I was like I

2477
01:33:17,689 --> 01:33:14,940
was like what made you look up and she

2478
01:33:19,310 --> 01:33:17,699
she's like I don't know I just did and

2479
01:33:21,290 --> 01:33:19,320
she's like it wasn't a helicopter or a

2480
01:33:22,729 --> 01:33:21,300
plane because it was white white light

2481
01:33:24,470 --> 01:33:22,739
and it shot off

2482
01:33:25,729 --> 01:33:24,480
and that was like right in the middle of

2483
01:33:28,370 --> 01:33:25,739
these on the ground

2484
01:33:30,410 --> 01:33:28,380
um sightings right in the area too so

2485
01:33:32,030 --> 01:33:30,420
people did see I mean she was like a

2486
01:33:34,129 --> 01:33:32,040
teenager at the time

2487
01:33:35,990 --> 01:33:34,139
um this was 30 years ago but yeah I mean

2488
01:33:38,030 --> 01:33:36,000
meeting new Witnesses all the time

2489
01:33:40,790 --> 01:33:38,040
always willing to talk to any of them

2490
01:33:43,610 --> 01:33:40,800
too even if it's these waterfalls all

2491
01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:43,620
witnesses that I don't believe exist

2492
01:33:46,970 --> 01:33:44,940
um I'd love to hear more about that

2493
01:33:50,870 --> 01:33:46,980
honestly but apparently it'd be very

2494
01:33:53,330 --> 01:33:50,880
popular if you found them yeah that was

2495
01:33:55,270 --> 01:33:53,340
such a strange claim these uh these

2496
01:33:57,470 --> 01:33:55,280
midnight Beach campers in in Winter

2497
01:33:59,689 --> 01:33:57,480
witnessing something so strange that

2498
01:34:01,870 --> 01:33:59,699
allegedly corroborates the timeline

2499
01:34:04,669 --> 01:34:01,880
although it contradicts it Adam

2500
01:34:06,950 --> 01:34:04,679
on the shoreline in the winter like any

2501
01:34:08,750 --> 01:34:06,960
of us us three from the Northeast uh

2502
01:34:13,370 --> 01:34:08,760
instantly are like no that doesn't make

2503
01:34:18,770 --> 01:34:16,189
the new folk ever

2504
01:34:21,890 --> 01:34:18,780
look into this

2505
01:34:24,229 --> 01:34:21,900
um there may be an entry there but uh

2506
01:34:26,810 --> 01:34:24,239
not as far as I know the the elements

2507
01:34:29,030 --> 01:34:26,820
that I know investigating were um mufon

2508
01:34:31,250 --> 01:34:29,040
of course and then uh

2509
01:34:33,290 --> 01:34:31,260
Michael swords from kufos and he came

2510
01:34:34,970 --> 01:34:33,300
down with his friend uh Dave Ford who

2511
01:34:36,229 --> 01:34:34,980
was actually a member of nightcap at the

2512
01:34:38,390 --> 01:34:36,239
time

2513
01:34:40,790 --> 01:34:38,400
um the the extent that Dave Ford

2514
01:34:43,490 --> 01:34:40,800
participated in the investigation seemed

2515
01:34:46,010 --> 01:34:43,500
to be getting Professor swords in the

2516
01:34:48,290 --> 01:34:46,020
door uh at the Weather Service he um

2517
01:34:49,610 --> 01:34:48,300
mentioned that Professor swords was a

2518
01:34:52,430 --> 01:34:49,620
science teacher from Western Michigan

2519
01:34:54,530 --> 01:34:52,440
University and that kind of made them

2520
01:34:57,350 --> 01:34:54,540
feel like okay we can let this guy in

2521
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:57,360
especially um as Michael swords puts it

2522
01:35:01,729 --> 01:35:00,000
uh the the UFO investigators were kind

2523
01:35:04,729 --> 01:35:01,739
of leaving bad taste in everybody's

2524
01:35:07,610 --> 01:35:04,739
mouth at the time UFO people pissing

2525
01:35:09,830 --> 01:35:07,620
everyone off picking the normies mad I'm

2526
01:35:11,750 --> 01:35:09,840
shocked yeah yeah I can only imagine

2527
01:35:13,550 --> 01:35:11,760
like walking down the street just like

2528
01:35:16,250 --> 01:35:13,560
grabbing every person they see what did

2529
01:35:18,970 --> 01:35:16,260
you see what did you see now um Michael

2530
01:35:22,010 --> 01:35:18,980
swords is a real one too

2531
01:35:23,990 --> 01:35:22,020
he's amazing his blog he's amazing like

2532
01:35:25,129 --> 01:35:24,000
yeah Nick I was gonna say like one of

2533
01:35:27,050 --> 01:35:25,139
the pet projects I've been thinking

2534
01:35:28,550 --> 01:35:27,060
about doing is scraping his blog and

2535
01:35:30,410 --> 01:35:28,560
then putting it in chronological order

2536
01:35:32,209 --> 01:35:30,420
so you could read it like a book that

2537
01:35:33,950 --> 01:35:32,219
would be awesome because like his blog

2538
01:35:36,290 --> 01:35:33,960
is incredible it's really thoughtful

2539
01:35:38,930 --> 01:35:36,300
it's really interesting and it covers

2540
01:35:40,430 --> 01:35:38,940
this like what like 15 years like some

2541
01:35:41,810 --> 01:35:40,440
crazy amount of time is extremely

2542
01:35:43,850 --> 01:35:41,820
prolific

2543
01:35:47,030 --> 01:35:43,860
um I also highly recommend his book uh

2544
01:35:49,430 --> 01:35:47,040
Grassroots UFOs or Grassroots oh yeah I

2545
01:35:52,610 --> 01:35:49,440
believe about his traveling display of

2546
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:52,620
UFOs in malls and then um just people

2547
01:35:57,410 --> 01:35:55,199
would walk up to them and offer their

2548
01:35:58,669 --> 01:35:57,420
own unique UFO experiences it's it's not

2549
01:36:01,250 --> 01:35:58,679
for the people who are looking for hard

2550
01:36:02,570 --> 01:36:01,260
data or anything but it is a book I like

2551
01:36:05,390 --> 01:36:02,580
to revisit when I'm feeling a little

2552
01:36:07,970 --> 01:36:05,400
cynical just these average people who

2553
01:36:09,890 --> 01:36:07,980
see a UFO display a traveling UFO

2554
01:36:11,990 --> 01:36:09,900
display in a mall that compels them to

2555
01:36:14,030 --> 01:36:12,000
share their stories it's a it's a

2556
01:36:16,430 --> 01:36:14,040
collection of all those and they range

2557
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:16,440
all over the place but it's just I don't

2558
01:36:20,750 --> 01:36:18,719
know kind of a fun read it's cool it's

2559
01:36:22,790 --> 01:36:20,760
like it's like modern day folklore right

2560
01:36:24,410 --> 01:36:22,800
these kinds of listening tours are so

2561
01:36:26,450 --> 01:36:24,420
interesting I mean that's what gets me

2562
01:36:28,610 --> 01:36:26,460
so hot to trot on doing ethnographic

2563
01:36:30,830 --> 01:36:28,620
research on uh in interviews with

2564
01:36:32,209 --> 01:36:30,840
experiencers is because so much of these

2565
01:36:34,790 --> 01:36:32,219
narratives are passed through like

2566
01:36:36,050 --> 01:36:34,800
government filters military filters just

2567
01:36:37,970 --> 01:36:36,060
having these direct one-on-one

2568
01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:37,980
conversations where people recount their

2569
01:36:41,870 --> 01:36:40,320
experiences is so fascinating and to me

2570
01:36:44,750 --> 01:36:41,880
feels like kind of the really kind of

2571
01:36:47,450 --> 01:36:44,760
the like Grassroots work that's super

2572
01:36:49,550 --> 01:36:47,460
compelling about the subjects

2573
01:36:51,709 --> 01:36:49,560
um one one little thing I didn't mention

2574
01:36:53,450 --> 01:36:51,719
um Jack bouchon's boss at the time Leo

2575
01:36:54,530 --> 01:36:53,460
Grenier I think is how you say his last

2576
01:36:56,870 --> 01:36:54,540
name

2577
01:36:58,910 --> 01:36:56,880
um he was interviewed by quite a few

2578
01:37:01,729 --> 01:36:58,920
news outlets at the time

2579
01:37:03,649 --> 01:37:01,739
um and he claimed he he claimed he was a

2580
01:37:05,090 --> 01:37:03,659
former military and that he knew exactly

2581
01:37:07,669 --> 01:37:05,100
what these things were but he couldn't

2582
01:37:10,010 --> 01:37:07,679
say it and maybe sometime in the future

2583
01:37:11,149 --> 01:37:10,020
he would uh pass on the information I

2584
01:37:13,070 --> 01:37:11,159
know unfortunately he passed away

2585
01:37:14,930 --> 01:37:13,080
without doing so

2586
01:37:16,669 --> 01:37:14,940
um but he's of course he liked to throw

2587
01:37:19,850 --> 01:37:16,679
that in in many interviews that he was

2588
01:37:21,350 --> 01:37:19,860
former I I don't know if he was Navy

2589
01:37:23,209 --> 01:37:21,360
um I'd have to look that up I don't know

2590
01:37:24,649 --> 01:37:23,219
specifics former military and he said he

2591
01:37:26,390 --> 01:37:24,659
knew exactly what these were but

2592
01:37:27,770 --> 01:37:26,400
couldn't speak on it

2593
01:37:30,530 --> 01:37:27,780
um which is fun everything everything

2594
01:37:32,689 --> 01:37:30,540
old is new again yeah yeah

2595
01:37:35,330 --> 01:37:32,699
um and uh another thing about that is

2596
01:37:37,610 --> 01:37:35,340
Jack actually did get a reputation

2597
01:37:40,550 --> 01:37:37,620
um in this town and it does it uh

2598
01:37:42,169 --> 01:37:40,560
touches on that in the show too uh the

2599
01:37:44,149 --> 01:37:42,179
stigma that you hear about um he

2600
01:37:46,010 --> 01:37:44,159
actually did face I mean his co-workers

2601
01:37:48,050 --> 01:37:46,020
at the time really gave him a hard time

2602
01:37:51,050 --> 01:37:48,060
for being the guy who saw UFOs on the

2603
01:37:53,270 --> 01:37:51,060
radar and he ended up moving to Georgia

2604
01:37:55,310 --> 01:37:53,280
I believe and working for the weather

2605
01:37:56,930 --> 01:37:55,320
station down there just to kind of

2606
01:38:00,649 --> 01:37:56,940
Escape that it never brought it up again

2607
01:38:02,390 --> 01:38:00,659
there which um was it was really great

2608
01:38:04,370 --> 01:38:02,400
because I reached out to him out of the

2609
01:38:05,990 --> 01:38:04,380
blue when I first started uh investing

2610
01:38:07,910 --> 01:38:06,000
in this case he was the first person I

2611
01:38:10,189 --> 01:38:07,920
reached out to one of the first steps I

2612
01:38:12,530 --> 01:38:10,199
did in um investigating this case

2613
01:38:15,470 --> 01:38:12,540
outside of looking at the old uh the

2614
01:38:17,450 --> 01:38:15,480
news clippings at the AFU and he was

2615
01:38:19,010 --> 01:38:17,460
um really willing to talk about it at

2616
01:38:20,209 --> 01:38:19,020
the time he said you haven't thought

2617
01:38:22,729 --> 01:38:20,219
about it in a long time haven't talked

2618
01:38:25,250 --> 01:38:22,739
about it but yeah yeah and he was but

2619
01:38:26,750 --> 01:38:25,260
really helpful in the beginning just

2620
01:38:29,570 --> 01:38:26,760
um always being willing to talk about

2621
01:38:32,689 --> 01:38:29,580
his experience and how he personally

2622
01:38:33,890 --> 01:38:32,699
felt and how he personally experienced

2623
01:38:36,290 --> 01:38:33,900
this

2624
01:38:37,790 --> 01:38:36,300
um more so like emotionally while while

2625
01:38:39,770 --> 01:38:37,800
looking at the straight ice cream so I

2626
01:38:41,450 --> 01:38:39,780
thought that was really awesome

2627
01:38:43,790 --> 01:38:41,460
um all the witnesses that I've been able

2628
01:38:45,770 --> 01:38:43,800
to get a hold of and speak to are really

2629
01:38:47,689 --> 01:38:45,780
genuine and really open about sharing

2630
01:38:51,890 --> 01:38:47,699
their experiences with me in the super

2631
01:38:53,330 --> 01:38:51,900
helpful so uh I mean um I I don't always

2632
01:38:55,550 --> 01:38:53,340
recommend like reaching out to strangers

2633
01:38:57,050 --> 01:38:55,560
and bugging them about UFOs but the

2634
01:38:59,930 --> 01:38:57,060
people in this case were really cool

2635
01:39:01,910 --> 01:38:59,940
about it and um develop friendships with

2636
01:39:03,709 --> 01:39:01,920
them too so like we still keep in touch

2637
01:39:05,990 --> 01:39:03,719
like they were all talking to me after

2638
01:39:08,870 --> 01:39:06,000
the the episode aired and I got kind of

2639
01:39:10,310 --> 01:39:08,880
their feedback on it they all said it

2640
01:39:13,790 --> 01:39:10,320
was pretty good I mean like none of them

2641
01:39:17,930 --> 01:39:15,530
um except for Jenny Tilly apparently but

2642
01:39:19,610 --> 01:39:17,940
of course yeah but that's where I'm at

2643
01:39:23,390 --> 01:39:19,620
with it always looking for more

2644
01:39:25,370 --> 01:39:23,400
information to fill in those gaps

2645
01:39:27,530 --> 01:39:25,380
wonderful well Nick thank you so much

2646
01:39:29,149 --> 01:39:27,540
this was this was excellent

2647
01:39:31,729 --> 01:39:29,159
um and also it was really great to have

2648
01:39:33,290 --> 01:39:31,739
these visuals to the company yeah talk

2649
01:39:34,910 --> 01:39:33,300
track like that was very helpful since

2650
01:39:37,490 --> 01:39:34,920
we've only just talked about this case

2651
01:39:39,890 --> 01:39:37,500
but this kind of helped knit together uh

2652
01:39:41,390 --> 01:39:39,900
Parts The Narrative and events uh with

2653
01:39:44,209 --> 01:39:41,400
different eyewitness accounts so yeah

2654
01:39:45,709 --> 01:39:44,219
very well done I I feel like the um the

2655
01:39:48,649 --> 01:39:45,719
diagram of the neighborhood where the

2656
01:39:50,090 --> 01:39:48,659
underground people kind of helps you get

2657
01:39:52,610 --> 01:39:50,100
a better understanding of what's going

2658
01:39:54,709 --> 01:39:52,620
on and like the fact you know it's all

2659
01:39:56,870 --> 01:39:54,719
within a mile or two especially that the

2660
01:39:58,970 --> 01:39:56,880
person right up around the corner on the

2661
01:40:00,350 --> 01:39:58,980
second floor balcony kind of looking

2662
01:40:02,149 --> 01:40:00,360
over the shoulders of the other

2663
01:40:04,430 --> 01:40:02,159
Witnesses and describing the same thing

2664
01:40:05,950 --> 01:40:04,440
on that tape I think is one of the more

2665
01:40:08,209 --> 01:40:05,960
compelling aspects of the whole case

2666
01:40:09,950 --> 01:40:08,219
great comment here from Steve Goldman

2667
01:40:11,450 --> 01:40:09,960
camping in this region after Labor Day

2668
01:40:14,450 --> 01:40:11,460
in this region crushes credibility

2669
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:14,460
beware of fake reluctance to it yeah I

2670
01:40:18,669 --> 01:40:16,560
think that's a lot of our Impressions I

2671
01:40:22,910 --> 01:40:18,679
was born and raised in Upstate New York

2672
01:40:25,850 --> 01:40:22,920
Campbell's and Canada Nixon Michigan

2673
01:40:27,950 --> 01:40:25,860
um yeah it gets very cold on the lake

2674
01:40:30,470 --> 01:40:27,960
side it makes no sense right on the lake

2675
01:40:32,390 --> 01:40:30,480
side and and if you were camping there

2676
01:40:34,129 --> 01:40:32,400
that time of night like I've done cold

2677
01:40:35,990 --> 01:40:34,139
weather camping and winter camping

2678
01:40:38,149 --> 01:40:36,000
you're not out of your tent looking

2679
01:40:41,209 --> 01:40:38,159
around outside you were like wrapped in

2680
01:40:43,310 --> 01:40:41,219
Merino wool and your quill and your pad

2681
01:40:45,950 --> 01:40:43,320
and your rain fly and everything you're

2682
01:40:48,729 --> 01:40:45,960
not outside looking around right um from

2683
01:40:52,189 --> 01:40:48,739
Derek that was awesome thanks nice quick

2684
01:40:54,830 --> 01:40:52,199
another great show swing

2685
01:40:56,570 --> 01:40:54,840
um yeah I do want to I want to say that

2686
01:40:57,830 --> 01:40:56,580
that waterfall claim that that is

2687
01:40:59,450 --> 01:40:57,840
getting um

2688
01:41:00,950 --> 01:40:59,460
I'm taking that with a grain of salt and

2689
01:41:02,450 --> 01:41:00,960
I recommend everybody else who watches

2690
01:41:03,890 --> 01:41:02,460
that episode I definitely recommend

2691
01:41:05,330 --> 01:41:03,900
people watch that episode of Unsolved

2692
01:41:06,649 --> 01:41:05,340
Mysteries and Unsolved Mysteries in

2693
01:41:09,050 --> 01:41:06,659
general I mean I grew up on that show

2694
01:41:09,770 --> 01:41:09,060
I'm disappointed my segment got cut from

2695
01:41:16,010 --> 01:41:09,780
it

2696
01:41:18,110 --> 01:41:16,020
to

2697
01:41:19,610 --> 01:41:18,120
um insinuate that they're lying or

2698
01:41:22,250 --> 01:41:19,620
anything like that I've just never heard

2699
01:41:23,750 --> 01:41:22,260
of it and um like I said well take take

2700
01:41:25,850 --> 01:41:23,760
everything obviously with a grain of

2701
01:41:27,229 --> 01:41:25,860
salt take no one's word for it but uh

2702
01:41:29,930 --> 01:41:27,239
keep that in mind when watching that

2703
01:41:31,910 --> 01:41:29,940
episode that that waterfall or that

2704
01:41:33,470 --> 01:41:31,920
water sucking UFO was never part of the

2705
01:41:35,450 --> 01:41:33,480
original story

2706
01:41:36,950 --> 01:41:35,460
um and I personally as someone who's

2707
01:41:39,350 --> 01:41:36,960
been researching this case for a couple

2708
01:41:40,430 --> 01:41:39,360
years now I I think it's really uh

2709
01:41:41,810 --> 01:41:40,440
questionable

2710
01:41:46,129 --> 01:41:41,820
right

2711
01:41:48,649 --> 01:41:46,139
let's just do a quick Round Table about

2712
01:41:52,129 --> 01:41:48,659
what people are working on Cambo what

2713
01:41:54,169 --> 01:41:52,139
are you doing I have been working on my

2714
01:41:55,970 --> 01:41:54,179
website again I think I mentioned last

2715
01:41:59,030 --> 01:41:55,980
week I was adding a few of those extra

2716
01:42:01,310 --> 01:41:59,040
pages so just been adding more of my

2717
01:42:02,570 --> 01:42:01,320
interviews under a sub page and then

2718
01:42:05,629 --> 01:42:02,580
I've been messing around with the

2719
01:42:08,270 --> 01:42:05,639
content a bit trying to clean it up make

2720
01:42:10,010 --> 01:42:08,280
it move smoother just always trying to

2721
01:42:12,290 --> 01:42:10,020
improve it and I'm working on a final

2722
01:42:14,270 --> 01:42:12,300
sort of like conclusion um Nick you

2723
01:42:15,350 --> 01:42:14,280
inspired me uh last week to actually

2724
01:42:18,350 --> 01:42:15,360
kind of

2725
01:42:20,870 --> 01:42:18,360
try to maybe dive into a series of the

2726
01:42:21,709 --> 01:42:20,880
highest profile historic cases a little

2727
01:42:23,090 --> 01:42:21,719
bit

2728
01:42:24,709 --> 01:42:23,100
um just to sort of show what's going on

2729
01:42:27,709 --> 01:42:24,719
with that so I've started to sort of

2730
01:42:29,750 --> 01:42:27,719
create the skeleton of that so that's

2731
01:42:31,729 --> 01:42:29,760
what I've been doing including uh Mino

2732
01:42:35,149 --> 01:42:31,739
is that how you say it mean no Air Force

2733
01:42:40,490 --> 01:42:38,689
yes because I was I know I was I was Air

2734
01:42:41,689 --> 01:42:40,500
Force Roxy and Minot was where they

2735
01:42:43,550 --> 01:42:41,699
threatened to send you if you like

2736
01:42:47,410 --> 01:42:43,560
really sucked and we're at the bottom of

2737
01:42:49,550 --> 01:42:47,420
your class do they say mine mine yeah

2738
01:42:51,229 --> 01:42:49,560
it's also notable because it was like

2739
01:42:53,810 --> 01:42:51,239
the last place in the United States I

2740
01:42:56,629 --> 01:42:53,820
think where you could drink at 18.

2741
01:42:57,890 --> 01:42:56,639
um yeah okay that's really funny if

2742
01:42:59,330 --> 01:42:57,900
you're trapped up there yeah I know

2743
01:43:00,830 --> 01:42:59,340
because when I was reading it I always

2744
01:43:02,209 --> 01:43:00,840
was like saying it in my head like the

2745
01:43:04,910 --> 01:43:02,219
French way right because we're bilingual

2746
01:43:06,410 --> 01:43:04,920
up here it's like me no but I was

2747
01:43:09,649 --> 01:43:06,420
thinking like how would an American say

2748
01:43:15,950 --> 01:43:13,570
um that's not even right sorry

2749
01:43:18,350 --> 01:43:15,960
the case does have some striking

2750
01:43:21,169 --> 01:43:18,360
similarities as does the uh the 1952

2751
01:43:24,109 --> 01:43:21,179
Washington DC case right here actually

2752
01:43:25,790 --> 01:43:24,119
uh oh no I'm always looking for more

2753
01:43:28,430 --> 01:43:25,800
cases they have um

2754
01:43:30,350 --> 01:43:28,440
similar like observations behaviors and

2755
01:43:32,330 --> 01:43:30,360
stuff like that because I think

2756
01:43:34,609 --> 01:43:32,340
I think it's really interesting that we

2757
01:43:37,370 --> 01:43:34,619
classify what I described in this case

2758
01:43:38,750 --> 01:43:37,380
as a UFO but also

2759
01:43:42,109 --> 01:43:38,760
um what allegedly happened like Phoenix

2760
01:43:44,810 --> 01:43:42,119
Lights as UFO uh Lonnie zamura's

2761
01:43:46,189 --> 01:43:44,820
incident in the Tic Tac Are UFOs these

2762
01:43:48,109 --> 01:43:46,199
things are all like described

2763
01:43:49,790 --> 01:43:48,119
drastically different ways

2764
01:43:51,830 --> 01:43:49,800
and the only thing that's kind of

2765
01:43:53,270 --> 01:43:51,840
holding them together is the unknown

2766
01:43:56,330 --> 01:43:53,280
nature the the fact that they are

2767
01:43:58,370 --> 01:43:56,340
unidentified yet we kind of um have a

2768
01:44:00,770 --> 01:43:58,380
culture around them where we're kind of

2769
01:44:03,050 --> 01:44:00,780
uh implying that they are all the same

2770
01:44:04,310 --> 01:44:03,060
thing it's really weird to me well

2771
01:44:06,169 --> 01:44:04,320
that's interesting yeah that would

2772
01:44:07,250 --> 01:44:06,179
actually be something I mean we'll uh

2773
01:44:08,570 --> 01:44:07,260
we'll wrap it up right now but that's

2774
01:44:09,770 --> 01:44:08,580
something I should dive into for like

2775
01:44:11,510 --> 01:44:09,780
three hours

2776
01:44:14,149 --> 01:44:11,520
um if you look through the historic

2777
01:44:16,310 --> 01:44:14,159
documents the U.S Air Force uh

2778
01:44:18,350 --> 01:44:16,320
definition of what a UFO is the FBI's

2779
01:44:21,109 --> 01:44:18,360
definition of what a UFO is

2780
01:44:23,030 --> 01:44:21,119
um the uh Condon reports definition what

2781
01:44:24,770 --> 01:44:23,040
if it was you came Ministry of defense's

2782
01:44:26,870 --> 01:44:24,780
definition of UFO is and then what

2783
01:44:28,850 --> 01:44:26,880
Jacques valet in jail and heineck's

2784
01:44:31,490 --> 01:44:28,860
definitions of what a UFO is they are

2785
01:44:33,470 --> 01:44:31,500
all identical they describe multicolored

2786
01:44:36,169 --> 01:44:33,480
luminous objects with the features that

2787
01:44:38,510 --> 01:44:36,179
we are describing uh then then even high

2788
01:44:40,010 --> 01:44:38,520
neck and the Air Force and stuff the CIA

2789
01:44:42,709 --> 01:44:40,020
as well I forgot them of course so

2790
01:44:45,350 --> 01:44:42,719
important they talk about how daylight

2791
01:44:47,510 --> 01:44:45,360
discs and nocturnal lights they may be

2792
01:44:50,209 --> 01:44:47,520
uh the same phenomenon under different

2793
01:44:51,950 --> 01:44:50,219
conditions the the nocturnal lights are

2794
01:44:54,350 --> 01:44:51,960
always luminous various colors this and

2795
01:44:57,830 --> 01:44:54,360
that during the daytime the objects

2796
01:45:00,709 --> 01:44:57,840
exhibit the exact same behaviors but a

2797
01:45:02,149 --> 01:45:00,719
pure metallic or dull uh and so they're

2798
01:45:05,570 --> 01:45:02,159
saying and that's something that you

2799
01:45:06,950 --> 01:45:05,580
would expect from plasma so and that's a

2800
01:45:08,209 --> 01:45:06,960
feature of a lot of reports it's like oh

2801
01:45:09,890 --> 01:45:08,219
the sun was on the other side of the

2802
01:45:11,570 --> 01:45:09,900
object but it was shining off this side

2803
01:45:13,550 --> 01:45:11,580
it makes no sense tons of those and it's

2804
01:45:15,890 --> 01:45:13,560
it's because it was emitting the

2805
01:45:18,410 --> 01:45:15,900
internal light from the plasmoid so

2806
01:45:19,669 --> 01:45:18,420
anyway yes uh long story short

2807
01:45:21,590 --> 01:45:19,679
um that was something I would love to

2808
01:45:23,750 --> 01:45:21,600
dive into extensively but I think there

2809
01:45:26,570 --> 01:45:23,760
is a consistent definition that we can

2810
01:45:28,550 --> 01:45:26,580
appeal to and there are a large number

2811
01:45:30,050 --> 01:45:28,560
of the most I mean I think every most

2812
01:45:31,970 --> 01:45:30,060
prominent case actually contains those

2813
01:45:36,050 --> 01:45:31,980
features um the ones that I have a 51

2814
01:45:38,290 --> 01:45:36,060
Los Alamos 1952 Washington DC 1959 White

2815
01:45:42,830 --> 01:45:38,300
Sands 1968

2816
01:45:46,189 --> 01:45:42,840
minox Air Force Base 1976 Tehran 79

2817
01:45:48,350 --> 01:45:46,199
magnis uh 1980 Rendell show the features

2818
01:45:51,229 --> 01:45:48,360
are the same 94 like Michigan and in

2819
01:45:52,430 --> 01:45:51,239
2004 amendments interesting that's what

2820
01:45:54,709 --> 01:45:52,440
I'm working on now

2821
01:45:56,330 --> 01:45:54,719
I like it

2822
01:45:58,310 --> 01:45:56,340
that's great Lewis

2823
01:46:02,109 --> 01:45:58,320
what's going on friend

2824
01:46:06,050 --> 01:46:02,119
I'm just reading some dubious books

2825
01:46:08,209 --> 01:46:06,060
one more Nazis and UFOs huh what about

2826
01:46:11,149 --> 01:46:08,219
um uh

2827
01:46:13,310 --> 01:46:11,159
I mentioned it to you actually Leah um

2828
01:46:16,609 --> 01:46:13,320
the uh the secret ciphers of the

2829
01:46:19,250 --> 01:46:16,619
euthanas by what's his name David

2830
01:46:21,950 --> 01:46:19,260
something Greenfield

2831
01:46:24,830 --> 01:46:21,960
yeah he there were a couple of his that

2832
01:46:27,950 --> 01:46:24,840
you shared with me yeah I don't know

2833
01:46:30,470 --> 01:46:27,960
like if there's spoofs or it seems like

2834
01:46:33,169 --> 01:46:30,480
he's kind of half serious so I can't

2835
01:46:34,790 --> 01:46:33,179
oh secret rituals of the Men in Black in

2836
01:46:38,229 --> 01:46:34,800
the complete secret Cipher of the

2837
01:46:40,629 --> 01:46:38,239
euphonats by Alan Greenfield wow

2838
01:46:43,750 --> 01:46:40,639
this is like man these are like

2839
01:46:46,970 --> 01:46:43,760
algorithmically generated titles

2840
01:46:48,890 --> 01:46:46,980
and they're also exactly in the pose law

2841
01:46:51,229 --> 01:46:48,900
space where you can't quite tell if

2842
01:46:53,350 --> 01:46:51,239
they're serious or not it's like that

2843
01:46:55,010 --> 01:46:53,360
sounds really great

2844
01:46:56,870 --> 01:46:55,020
compelling

2845
01:46:58,450 --> 01:46:56,880
and the other one is about um the

2846
01:47:01,550 --> 01:46:58,460
rendition case

2847
01:47:03,770 --> 01:47:01,560
a bunch of contributors and do I have it

2848
01:47:07,729 --> 01:47:03,780
here yeah that's a weird one I should

2849
01:47:08,590 --> 01:47:07,739
last time it's just disappeared there we

2850
01:47:11,209 --> 01:47:08,600
go

2851
01:47:14,270 --> 01:47:11,219
weaponization of an unidentified aerial

2852
01:47:17,229 --> 01:47:14,280
phenomena interesting it's got on a

2853
01:47:19,669 --> 01:47:17,239
bunch of people in this um

2854
01:47:21,410 --> 01:47:19,679
American and um

2855
01:47:23,870 --> 01:47:21,420
British um

2856
01:47:25,790 --> 01:47:23,880
people in different different roles

2857
01:47:28,609 --> 01:47:25,800
including

2858
01:47:31,189 --> 01:47:28,619
um a former Aid to Senator John McCain

2859
01:47:32,270 --> 01:47:31,199
Cheryl Bennett

2860
01:47:34,490 --> 01:47:32,280
um

2861
01:47:36,169 --> 01:47:34,500
and some other people but I don't know

2862
01:47:38,149 --> 01:47:36,179
like it seems like it's got a lot of

2863
01:47:40,629 --> 01:47:38,159
crap mixed in with some

2864
01:47:44,290 --> 01:47:40,639
more credible stuff

2865
01:47:46,910 --> 01:47:44,300
it's your first man yeah yeah

2866
01:47:49,609 --> 01:47:46,920
uh Leah what are you up to

2867
01:47:52,189 --> 01:47:49,619
yeah so um finally have a project name

2868
01:47:53,689 --> 01:47:52,199
uh for my Art Bell initiative We Own the

2869
01:47:55,250 --> 01:47:53,699
Night the legacy of Art Bell and Coast

2870
01:47:58,010 --> 01:47:55,260
to Coast AM

2871
01:47:59,930 --> 01:47:58,020
um I am on the I don't know like Don

2872
01:48:01,850 --> 01:47:59,940
Quixote tilting at windmills I'm trying

2873
01:48:04,250 --> 01:48:01,860
to amass like the most comprehensive

2874
01:48:06,229 --> 01:48:04,260
research and material repository on Art

2875
01:48:08,330 --> 01:48:06,239
Bell and Coast to Coast been going back

2876
01:48:10,370 --> 01:48:08,340
and forth with a couple one of the some

2877
01:48:12,830 --> 01:48:10,380
of the few and far between academics

2878
01:48:14,629 --> 01:48:12,840
that have studied kind of art and the

2879
01:48:16,430 --> 01:48:14,639
legacy of coast to coast and aiming to

2880
01:48:19,250 --> 01:48:16,440
have like the skeleton of the archive up

2881
01:48:20,209 --> 01:48:19,260
online for people to research and use

2882
01:48:22,070 --> 01:48:20,219
um and I've also starting to interview

2883
01:48:23,930 --> 01:48:22,080
people who are either current content

2884
01:48:26,450 --> 01:48:23,940
creators or were guests on his show at

2885
01:48:28,910 --> 01:48:26,460
some point to kind of start getting you

2886
01:48:32,090 --> 01:48:28,920
know thoughts ideas experiences Etc

2887
01:48:33,890 --> 01:48:32,100
around both their interactions with art

2888
01:48:35,629 --> 01:48:33,900
and then also you know how they've

2889
01:48:37,609 --> 01:48:35,639
carried his legacy forward in their own

2890
01:48:39,709 --> 01:48:37,619
creative Pursuits

2891
01:48:41,870 --> 01:48:39,719
um so that's yeah that's been my

2892
01:48:43,070 --> 01:48:41,880
day-to-day I'm also doing the Fool's

2893
01:48:46,010 --> 01:48:43,080
errand of going through all the old

2894
01:48:49,250 --> 01:48:46,020
prediction shows and annotating all the

2895
01:48:50,090 --> 01:48:49,260
predictions oh yeah yeah it's kind of

2896
01:48:53,149 --> 01:48:50,100
cool

2897
01:48:54,890 --> 01:48:53,159
um lots of conspiracies around 2000 ish

2898
01:48:56,510 --> 01:48:54,900
about China creating a flu and

2899
01:48:59,990 --> 01:48:56,520
unleashing it on the world so it's it's

2900
01:49:01,490 --> 01:49:00,000
good to know that uh linear time is uh

2901
01:49:03,590 --> 01:49:01,500
just a function of the limits of human

2902
01:49:06,530 --> 01:49:03,600
consciousness and everything happens all

2903
01:49:08,570 --> 01:49:06,540
at once so what people were crying about

2904
01:49:10,550 --> 01:49:08,580
in the tinfoil hat crowd 20 years ago

2905
01:49:13,850 --> 01:49:10,560
still the exact same

2906
01:49:15,590 --> 01:49:13,860
um but um yeah Art Bell greatest of all

2907
01:49:18,229 --> 01:49:15,600
time sorry he screwed up everything for

2908
01:49:20,030 --> 01:49:18,239
the rest of us but old Coast to Coast

2909
01:49:23,510 --> 01:49:20,040
episodes are still my favorite listening

2910
01:49:25,970 --> 01:49:23,520
yeah um so yeah uh so I don't think we

2911
01:49:27,290 --> 01:49:25,980
have a theme for next week's show I

2912
01:49:29,390 --> 01:49:27,300
guess we'll back Channel about that

2913
01:49:31,490 --> 01:49:29,400
might be open lines might be oh the

2914
01:49:32,870 --> 01:49:31,500
report will be out Joe oh yeah the

2915
01:49:34,550 --> 01:49:32,880
report will be out we should do an open

2916
01:49:36,530 --> 01:49:34,560
Line episode then and talk about the

2917
01:49:38,270 --> 01:49:36,540
report and uh just kind of Round Table

2918
01:49:40,370 --> 01:49:38,280
on some stuff

2919
01:49:42,709 --> 01:49:40,380
um you can find us at our Twitter

2920
01:49:46,189 --> 01:49:42,719
handles I'm Leah Prime Campbell UAP

2921
01:49:48,050 --> 01:49:46,199
study Nick inv night school yeah

2922
01:49:49,550 --> 01:49:48,060
um Lewis you follow through this

2923
01:49:53,030 --> 01:49:49,560
corrupt.com

2924
01:49:55,550 --> 01:49:53,040
um thanks so much for tuning in folks uh

2925
01:49:57,590 --> 01:49:55,560
feel free to reach out at any time and

2926
01:50:10,640 --> 01:49:57,600
otherwise I hope to see you guys soon

2927
01:50:10,650 --> 01:50:34,550
[Music]

2928
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:36,770
foreign